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Taqleed!

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Taqleed!

Post by ALI J.J WARIS on Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:23 am

YA ALI A.S MADAD

i don't know if this topic has been bought up or not but i would like to...

some people believe that taqleed of an ayatullah is an act which should be done by all muslims....they believe this because they think that without being led by an ayatullah we cannot go through everyday life problems.....

but if we see every hadith that we have a available (Quran or any other reference) we can face these everyday problems without it any objection and problem..


OUR 6TH IMAM ....IMAM JAFAR SADIQ A.S has narrated:

" if someone takes up religion (of MOHAMMED ASWS and ALAY MOHAMMED ASWS) from another person (taqleed) then his religion remains infirm and is easily destroyed by others ) preachers) but if he take it from Quran and sunnah then mountains may tremble but not his faith"

REF: mustadrak ul wasail . vol. 17 pp. 308

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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:31 pm

Yes there is some sort of concept of Taqleed in Shia Islam. Specialy in cases of halal and haram such as acts which are part of the shia aqaid like muta. This is why it is important to have some sort of basic knoweldge from them or you become like a lost sheep.

Al Kafi

H 57, Ch. 4, h 1

Muhammad ibn al-Hassan and Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad and Muhammad ibn Yahya from Ahmad ibn Muhammad, all from Ja’far ibn Muhammad al-Ash’ari from 'Abdullah ibn Maymun al-Qaddah and Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Hammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Qaddah from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.


"The holy Prophet has said, ‘If one sets out on a journey to seek knowledge Allah will lead him to the way that would take him to paradise. The angels will stretch their wings for the pleasure of the seeker of knowledge and all that is in the heavens and earth even the whales in the oceans will ask forgiveness for him (from Allah). The excellence of the scholar over other people is like that of the moon over other stars during a full-moon night. The scholars are the heirs of the prophets. The prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar (wealth) but they did leave knowledge. ’"


Last edited by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by azadaar110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:11 am

Silat_warrior110 wrote: This is why it is important to have some sort of basic knoweldge from them or you become like a lost sheep.

Are we not supposed to believe in Allah's and Ahlul Bayt (as)'s words? And are we not supposed to have knowledge of Quran and Hadith?

Silat_wariior110 wrote:

"The holy Prophet has said, ‘If one sets out on a journey to seek knowledge Allah will lead him to the way that would take him to paradise. The angels will stretch their wings for the pleasure of the seeker of knowledge and all that is in the heavens and earth even the whales in the oceans will ask forgiveness for him (from Allah). The excellence of the scholar over other people is like that of the moon over other stars during a full-moon night. The scholars are the heirs of the prophets. The prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar (wealth) but they did leave knowledge. ’"

Subhanallah Smile Maula (as) says that They (as) are the heirs of the Prophet (saww).


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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:26 am

Yes he (as) does and is, but as for this hadith and others we can not always be literal. Or Abu Bakar (la) was right in sayying “The Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance, but they left knowledge.” you need to look at the context of the hadith.
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by azadaar110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:29 am

Alright, we cannot be literal, so tell me the meaning of "heirs" in this context please.
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:43 am

A person who inherits or is entitled to somthing. In this case it is refering to knowledge "The prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar (wealth) but they did leave knowledge"

The spritual inheritors of prophets (pbuh), are their successors (as) and the learned scholars since they inherit the knowledge of prophets and Aima (as). These particular Hadith mentions scholars not family. The tradition is stressing that Prophet's did not come on the earth to horde vast amounts of wealth for the scholars that succeeded them, the only riches they left for the Ulema was their inheritance of knowledge.

The above Hadeeth is clear in its own context that the Prophets did not leave any of their material belongings for the scholars but what they left was knowledge.

"If Muhammad Al-Khider was a great scholar of Islam and I happen to be a student of his, I would inherit from him the knowledge which he has but I would not inherit his material belongings that is where his family comes in."





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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Rational Mind on Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:49 am

What is the definition of Scholar and is it stated as Alim in arabic or talib ilm?
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by azadaar110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:55 am

Silat_warrior110 wrote:A person who inherits or is entitled to somthing. In this case it is refering to knowledge "The prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar (wealth) but they did leave knowledge "

The spritual inheritors of prophets (pbuh), are their successors (as) and the learned scholars since they inherit the knowledge of prophets and Aima (as). These particular Hadith mentions scholars not family. The tradition is stressing that Prophet's did not come on the earth to horde vast amounts of wealth for the scholars that succeeded them, the only riches they left for the Ulema was their inheritance of knowledge.

The above Hadeeth is clear in its own context that the Prophets did not leave any of their material belongings for the scholars but what they left was knowledge.

"If Muhammad Al-Khider was a great scholar of Islam and I happen to be a student of his, I would inherit from him the knowledge which he has but I would not inherit his material belongings that is where his family comes in."




You believe that mere men inherit the knowledge of the Prophets (as). So this would mean that these scholars do have the same knowledge as the Prophets (as) do, and it is mentioned in several Ahadith that the Last Prophet (saww) has complete knowledge of this world and the hereafter.
This leads us to the conclusion that mere men do possess complete knowledge of both the world and the hereafter, yes?
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by azadaar110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:58 am

Rational Mind wrote:What is the definition of Scholar and is it stated as Alim in arabic or talib ilm?

Maula (as) says that an Alim is he who refrains from all unlawful (haram) acts.

And yes, that is a very good question as one who acquires knowledge (as stated in the Hadith) is not all-knowing, hence they would be Talib e Ilm (the one who acquires knowledge) instead of Alim (the one who knows).
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:14 am

We can not mix and match hadiths, each hadith has to be be analysed. Once again look at the context, " The scholars are the heirs of the prophets. The prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar"

Nahjul Balgaha
Sermon 109

Follow the sunnah of the Prophet for it is the most right of all behaviours. Learn the Qur'an for it is the fairest of discourses and understand it thoroughly for it is the best blossoming of hearts. Seek cure with its light for it is the cure for hearts. Recite it beautifully for it is the most beautiful narration. Certainly, a scholar who acts not according to his knowledge is like the off-headed ignorant who does not find relief from his ignorance, but on the learned the plea of Allah is greater and grief more incumbent, and he is more blameworthy before Allah.

So Imam Ali (as) has used this term also however in the above cited hadith from Al Kafi, the heirs of this knowledge are Ulema. The above narration is not talking about the inheritance of a material thing, i.e. a personal property or a land but it's talking about the knowledge of Prophets, which is inherited by the scholars of Islam. The Hadith is informing us of exactly what the Ulema receive as inheritance from Prophets. It is making clear that the Ulema are not the waris of the material possessions of the Prophets; rather the only thing that they inherit is the knowledge of Prophets. If this hadith was attributed to the Aima (as) then why you people jumping up and down about Fadak? do you think that Abu Bakar (la) was right not not giving Bibi Fatimah (as) any share of the prophets (saw) wealth? think about it....


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Re: Taqleed!

Post by azadaar110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:25 am

Silat_warrior110 wrote:Certainly, a scholar who acts not according to his knowledge is like the off-headed ignorant who does not find relief from his ignorance, but on the learned the plea of Allah is greater and grief more incumbent, and he is more blameworthy before Allah.

This shows us that a 'scholar' can sin, i.e he is not masoom.

If the other Hadith you first mentioned is not speaking about the Aimma (as) but mere man, then please tell me how a person who inherit the knowledge of the Prophets (as) [which is complete knowledge of the world, as well as the hereafter] can be non-masoom? One receives all knowledge that the Prophets (as) posses but does not know how to act upon it?

Furthermore, Sermon 19 of Nehjul Balagha speaks about scholars. I cannot see anywhere in the Hadith that these scholars inherit the knowledge of the Prophets (as). As you yourself said, we cannot mix two different things up.
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by azadaar110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:27 am

Sermon 19, in this context I believe the word schola is Talib e Ilm in Arabic because it first speaks about 'learn the Quran'. Maybe you can post its Arabic version up.
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:31 am

You have not understood the hadith or what I am sayying... let me explain it in another way. What do you think about Abu Bakar (la) not giving Bibi Pak (sa) her share in Inheritance ?
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Rational Mind on Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:37 am

Brother, here is the definition of legacy:

  1. (n.) A gift of property by will, esp. of money or personal
    property; a bequest. Also Fig.; as, a legacy of dishonor or disease.
  2. (n.)
    A business with which one is intrusted by another; a commission; --
    obsolete, except in the phrases last legacy, dying legacy, and the like.
Now are you arguing that the knowledge has been given as a gift? or as per the second meaning, it has been given as a business entrusted to another to carry on?

If it is one, can you show me who these scholars are that the Prophet(saww) entrusted, because if you entrust someone with a gift, you must identify the recipient otherwsie the gift is no longer a gift it becomes charity for everyone or reverts back to the estate of the bequethor.

Now if you are arguing that it is the second explanation, then again who carried out the business of the Prophet(saww) when the Prophet(saww) left mecca, when the Prophet(saww) recieved revelations and at other times during the early history of Islam?

Both constructions point to the Ahle Bait (as).

As for your fadak issue, that is irrelevant to the contents of this hadeeth.

Fadak was given during the lifetime of the prophet(saww). It was not formed as part of the will!

If you have a car and you give it to your son on the monday, and on wednesday you die leaving a will, the car will not be a part of that will as it was not your property since monday!

Furthermore, if you are going to claim fadak is a part of the equation, then show me the written will that excludes fadak?
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:22 am

Every single authoratative narrative, both on the Sunni and Shia side, affirms that Bibi Fatima (as) approached Abu Bakr (la) seeking Fadak as her inheritance. The term “inheritance” is always used, and never “gift.” Even the Shia books accuse Abu Bakr (la) of denying Bibi Fatima (as) her inheritance. This is the primary accusation of the Shia, not of stealing a gift. Indeed, an integral part of the Shia accusation is that Abu Bakr (la) fabricated a Hadith in regards to Prophets (pbut) not leaving behind inheritance.

also a well known Shia site Al-Islam.org, declares:



“Umar was the most harsh person in keeping Fatima (as) from Fadak and her inheritance as he himself confessed.” (Al-Islam.org,

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter4/9.html)

If Fadak was bestowed upon Fatima (as) as a gift, then why did she (sa) claim it as her inheritance and not say anything about a gift?

Even in the Famous sermon of Bibi Fatimah (sa) she says "It is become clear as daylight (like a shining sun), that I am his daughter [daughter of your Prophet Muhammad ( SWS)]. O Muslims! Will I be overcome and denied my inheritance?"

But If the Ulema here in the above hadith is refering to the Imams (as), then Abu Bakar (la) was not wrong in sayying

"The scholars are the heirs of the prophets. The prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar (wealth)"


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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Rational Mind on Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:03 am

Brother you have ignored the rest of my post....
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:35 am

What part of it has been ignored? You mentioned it was a Gift but I showed otherwise... the hadith clearly states that. "The scholars are the heirs of the prophets. The prophets did not leave any Dirham or Dinar (wealth) but they did leave knowledge". Thus if Bibi Fatimah (sa) was left with anything it is knowledge according to this hadith. Unless off course the use of the word Scholars is refering to someone else.


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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Rational Mind on Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:44 am

Rational Mind wrote:Brother, here is the definition of legacy:

  1. (n.) A gift of property by will, esp. of money or personal
    property; a bequest. Also Fig.; as, a legacy of dishonor or disease.
  2. (n.)
    A business with which one is intrusted by another; a commission; --
    obsolete, except in the phrases last legacy, dying legacy, and the like.
Now are you arguing that the knowledge has been given as a gift? or as per the second meaning, it has been given as a business entrusted to another to carry on?

If it is one, can you show me who these scholars are that the Prophet(saww) entrusted, because if you entrust someone with a gift, you must identify the recipient otherwsie the gift is no longer a gift it becomes charity for everyone or reverts back to the estate of the bequethor.

Now if you are arguing that it is the second explanation, then again who carried out the business of the Prophet(saww) when the Prophet(saww) left mecca, when the Prophet(saww) recieved revelations and at other times during the early history of Islam?

Both constructions point to the Ahle Bait (as).



This part.
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Rational Mind on Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:20 am

As for fadak being inheritance or gift, you may wish to open another thread on this but here are a few hadeeth showing that Paak Syeda (sa) already had possession of fadak when abu bakr (la) usurped it.

وعن عبد الله بن أبي بكر بن عمرو بن حزم عن أبيه قال جاءت فاطمة إلى أبي بكر فقالت أعطني فدك فإن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وهبها لي ۔۔۔

"When the Prophet died, Abu Bakr took Fadak from Fatima, she went to him and said: 'Give the land of Fadak to me, as my father the Prophet (s) gave it to me'...."
Riyadh al Nadira, Volume 1 page 89


"Of course, all that we had in our possession under this sky was Fadak, but a group of people felt greedy for it and the other party withheld themselves from it. Allah is, after all, the best arbiter."
Nahjul Balagha page 45 letter to Abi Uthman bin Haneef Ansari:

Majmal Buldan, Volume 3 page 312:

فكان علي يقول: إن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم جعلها في حياته لفاطمة

Ali (as) used to say: ‘The prophet [s] granted it to Fatima during His life’.

So fadak was a gift.

The inheritance issue was raised after abu bakr (la) refussed to give fadak back as land owned by the Daughter (sa) of the Prophet (saww) b asking for witnesses and refuting the testimony of Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (as) and by tearing to shreds the written dictum of the Prophet(saww) stating the land belonged to Paak Syeda (sa).

He then stated it is land that was owned by the Prophet (saww) and that Prophets left no inheritance.

Then Paak Syeda (sa) addressed this issue and gave this sermon.

Here is proof of it being a gift even in sunni works:
1. Maujam ul Buldan by Yaqoot Hamawi, v14, p238
2. Tareekh Khamees, v2, p88
3. Wafa-ul-Wafa by Noor-ud-Deen Al-Samhoodi, v4, page 1480


"Fadak was a city, which was situated 2 or 3 days of travel from Madina. There were wells of water and trees of dates in it. It was the same Fadak, about which Fatima Zahra (sa) said to Abu Bakr, "My father gave me this Fadak as a present". Abu Bakr asked her in reply to produce witnesses."

Here is the quranic proof that it was gifted to Paak Syeda (sa) rather than bequethed in a will:

And render to the kindred their due rights, as (also) to those in want, and to the wayfarer: But squander not (your wealth) in the manner of a spendthrift.
Al-Qur'an, Surah 17, Ayah 26, translated by Yusufali

"Abu Saeed al Khudri and Abdullah Ibn Abbas narrate that when the verse relating to giving rights to kindred was revealed, the Prophet called Fatima Zahra (as) and gifted the land of Fadak to her".
# Tafseer Durre Manthur v4, p177
# Kanzul Ummal, v2, p158
# Lababul Naqool, p137, Sura Isra
# Tafseer Mazhari, in Tafseer of above mentioned verse
# Tafseer Ruh Al-Ma'ani


Now brother you can argue it was an inheritance that had not been gifted during the Lifetime of the Prophet(saww), but it appears history and facts would disagree with you.

So this hadeeth does NOT cover fadak.
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Rational Mind on Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:25 am

So the hadeeth you mentioned starts with the seekers of knowledge, and states scholars are the inheriters of the Prophets.
Now either this hadeeth is wrong in matn for that as the quran clearly testifies that prophets leave heirs, OR the legacy being referred to is specific and is not included in inheritance and the seekers and scholars are separate.

I would argue that the hadeeth contradicts the quran because of what it is saying as Prophets(saww) do leave heirs and leave property and money and this hadeeth is going against the khutba of Paak Syeda (sa), the quran and other hadeeth!
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:00 pm

I would have open another thread however the ball is rolling and I don't think it should stop here Smile I am a little confused here, where does the tradition refer to legacy? Legacy is linked to a gift / delegation - but the tradition isnt about legacy. Rasulullah (s) is not talking about a gift for the Ulema he is talking of inheritance, since he (s) says the Ulema are the heirs to that knowledge - they have NOT acquired it oursuant to a gift rather they have acquired it as heirs. It Whilst a gift needs an identifiable person i.e. a recipient this is not the case when it comes to inheritance - a man may leave inheritance for his grandchildren even if they have not yet been born! Now when Rasulullah (s) said the Ulema inherited his Ilm and he refers to them as his heirs does this mean Ahl'ul bayt (as)? If yes then the same tradition says that the Ulema dont inherit the Dinars / Dirhams of Prophets - that automatically negates Syeda Fatima (as)'s Fadak claim, and the testimony of three Aima (as) that corroborated it. You cant have your cake and eat it. You cant interpret Ulema here as Ahl'ul Bayt (as) and also believe Fadak was inheritance for the Ahlul bayt (as).

Now can you answer my Question, If Fadak was bestowed upon Fatima (as) as a gift, then why did she (sa) claim it as her inheritance and not say anything about a gift? I am not sayying it was not a Gift however why is there no mention of this in the Sermon of Bibi Fatimah (sa)?

Bibi Fatimah (sa) she says "It is become clear as daylight (like a shining sun), that I am his daughter [daughter of your Prophet Muhammad ( SWS)]. O Muslims! Will I be overcome and denied my inheritance?"


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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:21 pm

So you are sayying that the Hadith goes against the Quran?

“The Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance, but they left knowledge.” (al-Kafi, vol. 1 p. 42)
This Shia Hadith in Al-Kafi has two separate narrations, and is considered Sahih the authenticity is confirmed by Khomeini, who used this Hadith to prove his claim of Wilayah al-Faqih. Khomeini said about the Hadith:

“The narrators of this tradition are all reliable and trustworthy. The father of ‘Ali ibn Ibrahim [namely Ibrahim ibn Hashim] is not only reliable, [but in fact] he is one of the most reliable and trustworthy narrators.”

(Khomeini, al-Hukumat al-Islamiyyah)

Not to add Allamah Majlisi has also confirmed these hadith as not been weak.



and please answer my Question above...


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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:47 pm

If the phrase: “The scholars are the heirs of the prophets” referred to the Imams (as) as does the tradition to the effect that the Imams (as) are the heirs of the Prophet (s) in all things I would not hesitate to say that the Imam (as) are indeed the heirs of Prophets (pbut)



The major problem still remaining is that the sentence: “The scholars are heirs of the prophets” occurs in a context suggesting that the traditions of the prophets constitute their legacy. The authentic tradition narrated by Qaddāh reads: “The prophets bequeathed not a single dinār or dirham instead they bequeathed knowledge.” These statements provide a context suggesting that the legacy of the prophets is their traditions, and that nothing else has survived of them that might be inherited, particularly since the particle “innamā” occurs in the text of the tradition, indicating exclusivity.



But even this objection is faulty. For if the meaning were indeed that the Most Noble Messenger (saw) had left nothing of himself that might be inherited except his traditions, this would contradict the very bases of our Shia school. The Prophet (saw) did indeed leave things that could be inherited, and there is no doubt that among them was his exercise of rule over the community, which was transmitted by him to the Imam (as), and then to each of the other Imams (as). The particle “innamā” does not always indicate exclusivity.



Now let us examine in turn each of the sentences in the text narrated by Qaddāh in order to see whether the context does, in fact, indicate that the legacy of the prophets consists exclusively of their traditions.



“For whoever travels a path in search of knowledge, God opens up a path to paradise.” This is a sentence in praise of scholars, but not in praise of any scholar, so that we imagine the sentence to be uniformly praising all types of scholar. Look up the traditions in asl Kafi concerning the attributes and duties of scholars, and you will see that in order to become a scholar and an heir of the prophets, it is not enough to study a few lines. The scholar also has duties he must perform, and therein lies the real difficulty of his calling.



Truly the scholars are the heirs of the prophets. The entire tradition, from its beginning down to and including this sentence, is in praise of the scholars and in exposition of their virtues and qualities, one of these qualities being that they are the heirs of the prophets. Being the heirs of the prophets becomes a virtue for the scholars.



The meaning of the next expression in the tradition, “The prophets bequeathed not a single dinar or dirham,” is not that they bequeathed nothing but learning and traditions. Rather it is an indication that although the prophets exercised authority and ruler over people, they were men of God, not materialistic creatures trying to accumulate worldly wealth.



The way of life of the Most Noble Messenger (saw) was extremely simple. He did not use his authority and position to enrich his material life in the hope of leaving a legacy. What he did leave behind was knowledge, the most noble of all things, and in particular, knowledge derived from God Almighty. Indeed, the singling out of knowledge for mention in this tradition may have been precisely because of its nobility.



It cannot be said that since the qualities of the scholars are mentioned in this verse together with their being heirs to knowledge and not heirs to property, therefore, the scholars are heirs only to knowledge and traditions.
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Azadar E Mazloom on Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:14 pm

Brother Silat,

are you able to clarify what you believe this hadith is stating? I ask as I am somewhat confused as to how you seem to be applying it.

What does this hadith have to do with the initial question?

You've left me a bit confused...

Maula (as) waris.
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Re: Taqleed!

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:44 am

Ya Ali (as) Madad, the mention of the word Scholars in the above hadith found in Al Kafi. If you read my posts, you will understand it better inshallah...
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Re: Taqleed!

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