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Rulings on the Ghulat (Extremist)

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Rulings on the Ghulat (Extremist)

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:40 pm

Nussairiyya, who are scattered throughout Iran, Mosul, and Syria. We Shias are distinct from them and consider them infidels. In all the books written by Shia ulema and legal scholars, the Ghalis (extremists) are included among the disbelievers, since their belief is against the tenets of Shia'ism. For instance, they argue that, since the infusion of the soul into a material body is possible (as Gabriel could appear before the Holy Prophet in the form of Dahiyya-e-Kalbi), it was Allah's will that His Holy Self appear in human form in Ali's (as) body. For this reason they consider the position of Ali higher than that of the Prophet. Such a faction emerged during Ali's own time. Some people of India and the Sudan came to him and professed that he was Allah (swt).

Ali repeatedly forbade them to hold this view, but to no effect. Finally, as is recorded in many histories, Ali ordered them to be killed in wells of smoke. The details of this case have been given in Baharu'l-Anwar, Volume VII, by the great Alim, Agha Muhammad Baqir Majlisi. The Commander of the Faithful and other Imams bitterly condemned such people. Ali said: "O Allah, I scorn the group of Ghullat (extremists), just as Jesus scorned the Christians. May you forsake them forever." On another occasion he said: "There are two groups who will suffer humiliating death, and I am not responsible for them (since I disdain their deeds): those who exceed the lawful limits of love for me and are Ghullat (extremists), and those who, for no reason whatsoever, are hostile to me. I hate those who extol my position beyond its proper limit, just as Christ hated the Christians."

He (as) also said: "There are two groups associated with me who will suffer ignoble death: one is composed of those people who say they are friends and praise me beyond lawful limit; the other is composed of the enemies who degrade my rank."

The Shias condemn those who praised Imam Ali (as) and his Ahle Bait (as) beyond the limit ordained by Allah and the Prophet. Our ulema have unanimously held that they are all disbelievers. It is not permitted to attend their funerals or to marry them. They are also deprived of inheriting Muslim property; charity and religious taxes may not be given to them. The Holy Qur'an condemns them in these words: "Say: O followers of the Book, be not immoderate in your religion, and do not follow the low desires of people who went astray before and led many astray and went astray from the right path." (5:80)

Allama Majlisi, in his Baharu'l-Anwar Volume III, which is the encyclopedia of the Shia faith, has recorded many hadith condemning the Ghullat (extremists). Imam Ja'far Sadiq is quoted as saying, "We are servants of Allah, Who created us and made us superior to the others of His creation. Certainly we shall die and shall stand before Allah for reckoning. He who is a friend of the Ghalis is our enemy; and he who is their enemy is our friend. The Ghalis are infidels and polytheists; curse be upon them." A great religious head of the Shias has also quoted the same Imam as saying, "Allah's curse be upon those who claim divinity and godhood for Ali. By Allah, Ali was an obedient servant of Allah. Curse be upon those who have slandered us; some people say things about us that we do not say ourselves. We declare that we have no connection with them."

Sheikh Saduq (Abu Ja'far Muhammad Bin Ali), a highly respected Faqih (legal scholar) of the Shias, quotes Zarara Bin A'yun, a reliable Shia writer, who was a hafiz and companion of Imam Muhammad Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq, as saying: "I told Imam Ja'far Sadiq that one of the persons known to him believes in Tufwiz (delegation of Divine authority). The Imam said: 'What is meant by Tufwiz?' I replied, 'The man says that Allah created Muhammad and Ali and then delegated to them His authority over the affairs of the people. So they are the creators, the givers of food; they are the animators, and they are the killers.' The holy Imam said: 'The enemy of Allah lies. When you go back to him, read him this verse from the Holy Qur'an: "....or have they set up with Allah associates who have created creation like His, so that what is created became confused to them? Say: 'Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Supreme.'" (13:16)

Taken From Wasa’il ash-Shi`a, book of hudud and ta`zirat,



[ 34891 ] ـ محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن هشام بن سالم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : أتى قوم أمير المؤمنين ( عليه الصلاة والسلام ) فقالوا : السلام عليك يا ربنا ! فاستتابهم ، فلم يتوبوا ، فحفر لهم حفيرة وأوقد فيها نارا وحفر حفيرة إلى جانبها اخرى وأفضى بينهما فلما لم يتوبوا ألقاهم في الحفيرة وأوقد في الحفيرة الاخرى حتى ماتوا .

وعن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أبي عميرمثله .

ورواه الشيخ بإسناده عن علي بن إبراهيم .

أقول : حمله الشيخ على المرتد عن ملة ، لما مر .



Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hisham b. Salim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: A group came to Amir al-Mumineen عليه السلام, and they said: Peace be upon you, O our Lord! So he sought their repentance, but they did not repent. So he dug a pit for them and lit a fire in it and dug a pit to its other side and conveyed between them (i.e. joined the two pits to one another). So when they did not repent he threw them in the pit and lit (the fire) in the other pit until they died.



[ 34892 [ ـ وعن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن ابن محبوب ، عن صالح بن سهل ، عن كردين ، عن رجل ، عن أبي عبدالله وأبي جعفر ( عليهما السلام ) ، أن أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) لما فرغ من أهل البصرة أتاه سبعون رجلا من الزط ، فسلموا عليه وكلموه بلسانهم ، فرد عليهم بلسانهم ، ثم قال : إني لست كما قلتم ، أنا عبدالله مخلوق ، فأبوا عليه ، وقالوا : أنت هو ، فقال : لئن لم تنتهوا وترجعوا عما قلتم في ، وتتوبوا إلى الله لأقتلنكم ، فأبوا أن يرجعوا ويتوبوا ، فأمر أن تحفر لهم آبار ، فحفرت ، ثم خرق بعضها إلى بعض ، ثم قذفهم فيها ، ثم خمر رؤوسها ، ثم الهبت النار في بئر منها ليس فيه أحد منهم ، فيدخل عليهم الدخان فيها فماتوا .

ورواه الصدوق مرسلا .

ورواه الكشي في ( كتاب الرجال ) عن الحسين بن الحسن بن بندار ، عن سعد بن عبدالله ، عن أحمد بن محمد .

ورواه الشيخ في ( المجالس والأخبار ) بإسناده عن هشام بن سالم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) نحوه .



And from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Mahbub from Salih b. Sahl from Kirdeen from a man from Abu `Abdillah and Abu Ja`far عليهما السلام that when Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام departed from the people of Basra, seventy men of the Zutt came to him. So they gave salam to him and spoke with him in their language. So he responded to them in their language. Then he said: Verily I am not as you say. I am a created servant of Allah. So they refused him and they said: You are He. So he said: If you do not cease and return from what you have said regarding me, and repent to Allah, I shall kill you. So they refused to return and repent. So he commanded that wells be dug for them, so they were dug. Then some of them were pierced to some (i.e. the wells joined to one another via an opening between them). Then he hurled them in it. Then he covered their heads (i.e. of the wells’ openings). Then the fire was ignited in a well from them in which there was not (any)one of them in it. So the smoke entered upon them in it and they died.

.

[ 34893 ] ـ الحسن بن سليمان في ( مختصر البصائر ) نقلا من كتاب ابن بابويه ، عن محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل ، عن موسى بن جعفر ، عن موسى بن عمران ، عن النوفلي ، عن السكوني ، عن أبي عبدالله ، عن آبائه ، عن علي ( عليهم السلام ) أنه دخل عليه مجاهد ، فقال : ما تقول في كلام القدرية ؟ فقال أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) : معك أحد منهم ؟ أو في البيت أحد منهم ؟ قال : وما تصنع بهم يا أمير المؤمنين ؟ قال : أستتبهم فان تابوا وإلا قتلتهم .



al-Hasan b. Sulayman in Mukhtasar al-Basa’ir transmitting from the book of Ibn Babuwayh from Muhammad b. Musa b. al-Mutawakkil from Musa b. Ja`far from Musa b. `Imran from an-Nawfali from as-Sakuni from Abu `Abdillah from his fathers from `Ali عليهم السلام that Mujahid entered in upon him. So he said: What do you say regarding the kalam of the qadariyya? So Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said: Is there one of them with you? Or in the house, is there one of them? He said: And what am I to do with them O Amir al-Mu’mineen? He said: Seek their repentance, so if they repent (leave them be) and if not, you are to kill them.



[ 34894 ] ـ محمد بن عمر بن عبد العزيز الكشي في ( كتاب الرجال ) عن محمد بن قولويه ، عن سعد بن عبدالله ، عن محمد بن عثمان العبدي ، عن يونس بن عبد الرحمن ، عن عبدالله بن سنان ، عن أبيه ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) قال : إن عبدالله بن سبأ كان يدعي النبوة ، وكان يزعم أن أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) هو الله ـ تعالى عن ذلك ـ فبلغ أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) فدعاه فسأله ، فأقر وقال : نعم أنت هو ، وقد كان ألقي في روعي أنك أنت الله وأنا نبي ، فقال له أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) : ويلك قد سخر منك الشيطان ، فارجع عن هذا ثكلتك امك وتب ، فأبى ، فحبسه ، واستتابه ثلاثة أيام فلم يتب فأخرجه فأحرقه بالنار . . الحديث .

Muhammad b. `Umar b. `Abd al-`Aziz al-Kashshi in Kitab ar-Rijal from Muhammad b. Qulawayh from Sa`d b. `Abdullah from Muhammad b. `Uthman al-`Abdi from Yunus b. `Abd ar-Rahman from `Abdullah b. Sinan from his father from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said: Verily `Abdullah b. Saba claims prophethood, and he would claim that Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام is Allah –exalted be He from that. So he reached Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام and he called him and he questioned him. So he acknowledged and said: Yes, you are He. It was suggested (?) in my mind (?) that verily you are Allah and I am a prophet. So Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said to him: Woe be unto you, Shaytan has mocked you. So return from this, may your mother be bereft of you, and repent. So he refused, and he imprisoned him, and sought his repentance for three days but he did not repent. So he took him out and burnt him with fire (al-hadith)



[ 34895 ] ـ وعنه ، عن سعد ، عن يعقوب بن يزيد ، ومحمد بن عيسى جميعا ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن هشام بن سالم ، قال : سمعت أبا عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) يقول ـ وهو يحدث أصحابه بحديث عبدالله بن سبأ ، وما ادعى من الربوبية لأمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) ـ فقال : إنه لما ادعى ذلك فيه استتابه أميرالمؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) فأبى أن يتوب ، فأحرقه بالنار .



And from him from Sa`d from Ya`qub b. Yazid, and Muhammad b. `Isa all from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hisham b. Salim. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام saying – and he was narrating to his companions the hadith of `Abdullah b. Saba, and what he claimed of Lordship for Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام. So he said: Verily when he claimed that regarding him, Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام sought his repentance. So he refused to repent, so he burnt him by fire.





[ 34897 ] ـ وعن الحسين بن الحسن بن بندار ، عن سهل بن زياد ـ في حديث ـ أن أبا الحسن العسكري ( عليه السلام ) كتب إلى بعض أصحابنا في كتاب في حق الغلاة ، قال : وإن وجدت من أحد منهم خلوة فاشدخ رأسه بالصخرة .



And from al-Husayn b. al-Husayn b. Bundar from Sahl b. Ziyad in a hadith wherein Abu ‘l-Hasan al-`Askari عليه السلام wrote to some of our companions in a writing regarding the truth of the ghulat. He said: And if you find one of them alone, then smash his head with a rock.
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Re: Rulings on the Ghulat (Extremist)

Post by Rational Mind on Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:47 pm

Ya Ali Madad brother an extremely interesting topic.

Firstly can i enquire as to where you obtained the translation for the hadeeth? I take it they are from the 29th and last volume of wasail?

Secondly, there is a general disagreement between many scholars that abdullah bin saba existed. Can you show these hadeeth from al kafi, manyazaral faqih al ibstisar or al tehzib?
I ask that because ibne hur al amili claims to have compiled his hadeeth from these sources, so they must exist in them? if not then from where did he get these hadeeth? perchance he did not record from the unanimously disbelieved sayf ibne umar, who concocted stories to pin on this ibne saba to demonise him as the perpatrot of the murder of usman(la) and the conflict of jamal?

Furthermore there is no question as to someone believing Mola (as) to be Allah (swt) [nauzobillah] is wrong and a mushrik, and this view is inherently wrong.
But how can one pin it to abdullah bin saba who allegedly a jewish revert accepted Islam during the reign of Uthman (la) with a hidden agenda?

Was this saba killed in the smoke well or was he banished to madain (then capital or iran) and after the Martyrdom of Mola(as) started to pass off his ideas?

There is so much controversy regarding him, that hadeeth containing his mention are generally not held to be trustworthy.

But for all inents and purposes we can agree that anyone claiming Mola (as) to be Allah (swt) [nauzobillah] are mushriks and this is abhorrant and wrong as it contradicts the quran.
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Re: Rulings on the Ghulat (Extremist)

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:00 am

These hadiths are all taken from Wasa’il ash-Shi`a, book of "hudud and ta`zirat", ( باب حكم الغلاة والقدرية) Volume 6. As you aware Shiekh al-Hurr al-Aamili, was a Shia scholar (Akhbari). His book Wasael ush-Shia (andothers), are comprehensive compilation of authentic Shia hadiths. In regards to your Question about Abdullah Ibn Saba. The facts about his existence are, however, controversial. he should not be confused with an identically-named Jewish scholar who resided in Medina at the time of Prophet Muhammad (saw). Interesting enough not only Hurr al-Aamili him self collected the account of Abdullah Ibn Saba but other Shia scholars such as Sheikh Sadooq himself:-

Imam Ali(as) said: when somone ends his pray, he have to rise his hand, and then Abdullah Ibn Saba said, for what ? isn't Allah (swt) in every where...?

Man la yahduruhu al-Faqih Vol 1 h229

Is the Shia "Abdullah Ibn Saba" and the Sunni one the same person? that is a whole differant story. We find from most of the narrations that are mentioned about Abdullah Bin Saba from Sunni sources are from someone called Sayf ibn Umar. However Sayf ibn Umar is as a weak narrator from even the eyes of Sunni scholars of hadith. 'Sayf has two books which have been unanimously abandoned by even sunni scholars also. The following well known Sunni scholars say that Saff ibn Umar is not to be accepted regarding hadith:-

al-Hakim (d. 405 AH) wrote: "Sayf is accused of being a heretic. His narrations are abandoned."

al-Nisa'i (d. 303 AH) wrote: "Sayf's narrations are weak and they should be disregarded because he was unreliable and untrustworthy."

Yahya Ibn Mueen (d. 233 AH) wrote: "Sayf's narrations are weak and useless."

Abu Hatam (d. 277 AH) wrote: "Sayf's Hadith is rejected."

Ibn Abi Hatam (d. 327 AH) wrote: "Scholars have abandoned Sayf's narrations."

Abu Dawud (d. 316 AH) wrote: "Sayf is nothing. He was a liar. Some of his Hadiths were conveyed and the majority of them are denied."

Ibn Habban (d. 354 AH) wrote: "Sayf attributed fabricated traditions to the good reporters. He was accused of being a heretic and a liar."

Ibn Abd al-Barr (d. 462 AH) mentined in his writing abut al-Qa'qa: "Sayf reported that al-Qa'qa Said: I attended the death of the Prophet Muhammad." Ibn Adb al-Barr continued: "Ibn Abu Hatam said: Sayf is weak. Thus, what was conveyed of the presence of al-Qa'qa at the death of the Prophet is rejected. We mentioned the Sayf's traditions for knowledge only."

al-Darqutini (d. 385 AH) wrote: "Sayf is weak".

Firoozabadi (d. 87 AH) in "Towalif" mentioned Sayf and some others by saying: "They are weak."

Ibn al-Sakan (d. 353 AH) wrote: "Sayf is weak."

Safi al-Din (d. 923 AH) wrote: "Sayf is considered weak."

Ibn Udei (d. 365 AH) wrote about Sayf: "He is weak. Some of his narrations are famous yet the majority of his narrations are disgraceful and not followed."

al-Suyuti (d. 900 AH) wrote: "Sayf's Hadith is weak."

Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (d. 852 AH) wrote after mentioning a tradition:"Many reporters of this tradition are weak, and the weakest among them is Sayf."

Sunnies are two faced and clear example of this is when it suits them they happly use the hadiths of Safy Ib Umar when it suits them but otherwise he is a weak narrator lol? Abdullah Ibn Saba is suppose to be a bogeyman who is to have been the founder of Shia Islam during the Khalifah of the third Khalifah. To be honest with you this is a big topic, and I can go into great detail. Yes there is Shia hadith of Abdullah Ibn Saba but they are not the same person. i hope this helps? unless there is somthing else you wanted to know? I can't be bothered typing lol
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Re: Rulings on the Ghulat (Extremist)

Post by Rational Mind on Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:56 am

How are they not the same person? The abdullah bin saba jewish revert is the same person in both sets of hadeeth, if he is made up in one or misrepresented in one, then how can you claim him to be accurately portrayed and real in the other set of hadeeth?
And if he is accepted as real and accurately portrayed in amilis hadeeth's then dont they justify and validate sayf bin umars narrations of him?
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Re: Rulings on the Ghulat (Extremist)

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:16 am

Inshallah I will try my best to cover all that is possible regarding this bogeyman.

Now, let us compare the Sunni Abdullah Ibn Saba according to the Shia one. And as to why they can not be the same person...


1. Abdullah Ibn Saba appeared during the Caliphate of Imam Ali (AS), and not during the rule of Uthman as Sayf alleged.

2. Abdullah Ibn Saba did not say that Ali is the successor of Prophet
(PBUH&HF) as Sayf claimed. Rather he said Ali (AS) is God.

3. Imam Ali (AS) burnt him along with all other extremists(al Ghulat).
This is while Sayf does not state such a thing.

4. There is no mention of his existence or his playing a role at the time of Uthman. There is no mention of his agitation against Uthman which ended up with assassination of Uthman as Sayf attributed to Abdullah Ibn Saba.

5. There is no mention of the role of Abdullah Ibn Saba in the battle of Camel as Sayf attributed to him.

6. These traditions by Saif indicate that righteous companions of
Prophet followed Abdullah Ibn Saba. This is while Sayf maliciously
alleged that some of the most faithful pioneers of Islam such as Abu Darr (RA) and Ammar Yasir (RA) were the students of Abdullah Ibn Saba during the reign of Uthman.
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