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What is your view regarding this..

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What is your view regarding this..

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:07 am

What is your Views regarding a none syed woman who divorces a syed man, is she allowed to marry a none syed afterwards?... (please share your views!)
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Rational Mind on Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:01 pm

Ya Ali Madad.

My personal opinion is that yes she can, any hadeeth on this issue?
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:07 pm

any more people would like to comment before I reply?
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:37 am

well anyway, seen that everyone is asleep I based this on the matter of respect for the Sayyid. Considering the fact the wives of the Prophet (saw) where unable to marry after his death.
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Azadar E Mazloom on Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:47 pm

Are you referring to the 'eternity' verse?
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:53 pm

yes brother...
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Nader Zaveri on Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:11 am

Assalaamu 'Alaykum,

It is okay for a non-sayyid girl to marry a sayyid guy, or vice versa. This is totally against Islaam. This is a bid`ah that has been started and is rampant amongst our Shee`ah, and this needs to stop.

Our shee'ahs need to get out of this "cult-like" and "cast-like" mentality. This is the WHOLE reason why Islaam came, which was to abolish this. The Prophet (SAWAS) made a consciouses effort to stop this, but our Shee'ahs have seem to come back on this path of jaahiliyyah.

وَ عَنْهُ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص زَوَّجَ ضُبَاعَةَ بِنْتَ الزُّبَيْرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ مِنْ مِقْدَادِ بْنِ الْأَسْوَدِ فَتَكَلَّمَتْ فِي ذَلِكَ بَنُو هَاشِمٍ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص إِنِّي إِنَّمَا أَرَدْتُ أَنْ تَتَّضِعَ الْمَنَاكِحُ
Translation: and from Muhammad bin `Abdullaah from Muhammad bin Abee `Umayr from Mu`aawiyah bin `Ammaar from Aboo `Abdillaah (as). He said: Verily! the Messenger of Allah (SAWAS) married Dabaa`ah, the daughter of Al-Zubayr bin `Abd Al-MuTTalib, to Miqdaad bin Al-Aswad, so the Banu Hashim talked about that. The Messenger of Allah (SAWAS) said: Verily! I only want that the women be humbled.
    Source:
  1. Al-Toosi, Al-Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam, vol. 7, ch. 33, pg. 396, hadeeth # 5
  2. Al-Aamilee, Wasaa-il Al-Shee'ah, vol. 20, ch. 26, pg. 71, hadeeth # 25061

    Grading:
  1. Al-Majlisi says this hadeeth is "Mawaththaq" (Dependable/Reliable)
  2. --> Milaadh Al-Akhyaar, vol. 12, pg. 312

This hadeeth is mawaththaq (dependable/reliable), but even if all the aHaadeeth about this would be Da'eef we should still hold the viewpoint that it IS PERMISSIBLE for a syed women to marry a non-syed man. Because, this is a historical FACT, EVERYONE knows that Al-Miqdaad (ra) married DaBaa'ah, the daughter of Al-Zubayr ibn 'Abd Al-MuTTalib, and the Prophet (SAWAS) was the one to do this marraige. This fact can be found in both Shee'ah and Sunnee history books, because this was a big event during the time of Rasullilaah (SAWAS).

Now for us to even accept a hadeeth that says, "a syed woman MUST marry a syed guy" is IMPOSSIBLE. That statement right there would go solely against the Sunnah (words/actions/approval) of our Prophet (SAWAS), and our Imaams (as) have never done that.

We need to abolish this practice that goes on, I know for sure that this practice is heavily done within the Indo-Pak communities. Once again, it is the job of the scholar/speaker to get on the pulpit and address this situation dedicating one whole majlis / khutbah to it. I am glad some of our scholars have already addressed this issue, but we need more Indo-Pak scholars addressing this issue in Urdu for sure.

I have seen good syed girls not marrying good non-syed guys, because of their family enforcing this "made up law". May Allaah (SWT) protect them from his punishment.

The wording of the hadeeth that is underlined is very interesting.
Verily! I only want that the women be humbled.

I see Sayyid guys and Sayyid girls walk with there "heads held high", because they think they are better than the others.
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا يَسْخَرْ قَومٌ مِّن قَوْمٍ عَسَى أَن يَكُونُوا خَيْرًا مِّنْهُمْ وَلَا نِسَاءٌ مِّن نِّسَاءٍ عَسَى أَن يَكُنَّ خَيْرًا مِّنْهُنَّ
[Surah Al-Hujuraat (49) : Verse 11] O you who believe! let not (one) people laugh at (another) people perchance they may be better than they, nor let women (laugh) at (other) women, perchance they may be better than they

Sorry to tell them, they aren't! Allaah (SWT) cares only about your taqwah, and that is it.

إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
[Surah Al-Hujuraat (49) : Verse 13] Verily! the most honorable of you with Allah is the one with the most taqwah; surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.

Wa 'Alaykum Assalaam

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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:27 am

The marriage of a Hashmi female to a none Hashmi does not prove a point on the marriage of a Syeda with a none Syed. This was done as a punishment by the holy Prophet (saw). Hence the words "Verily! I only want that the women be humbled." They has been other occasions in the past where certian exceptions have been made. As for the story of Hazrat Musa(as) and Hazrat Khzir(as) a child was killed at young age, yet this child was not allowed to act out his free will. One might say where is the concept of Adil (justice) here? However this was done as a exception by the command of Allah(swt) as a punishment as latter he was going to grow to become a great sinner. Now can you give me one Hadith where it states that any of the 12 Imams (as) gave there daugthers to none syeds? please answer the Question.
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Nader Zaveri on Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:33 am

Assalaamu `Alaykum,

Can you give me a SaHeeH hadeeth that prohibits the non-sayyid girl from marrying a sayyid guy?

By the way, there is a whole chapter title in Wasaa'il that discusses this.

باب انه يجوز لغير الهاشمي تزويج الهاشمية ن والأعجمي العربية ، والعربي القرشيّة ، والقرشي الهاشمية ، وغير ذلك
Chapter on that it is permissible for the non-Hashimid man to marry the Hashimid woman and the `Ajame (Persian and/or non-`Arab) man the Arab woman, and the `Arab man the Qurayshi woman, and other than that.
Source:
  • Al-`Aamilee, Wasaa'il Al-Shee`ah, vol. 20, pg. 69 - 71


Also, unless you have a hadeeth that proves that this is a khaS (specific) situation, this will be considered a sunnah of the Prophet (SAWAS), since it is done with his (SAWAS) acceptance and approval. If there is no SaHeeH hadeeth that makes this a khaS situation, then it must be taken as a general hadeeth. This is how the world of hadeeth works.

Wa `Alaykum Assalaam

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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:41 am

What has a Hashmi woman got to do with a Syeda? and answer my Question, name me one of the Imams (as) daughters who married a none Syed?
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Nader Zaveri on Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:48 am

Assalaamu `Alaykum
Silat_warrior110 wrote:and answer my Question, name me one of the Imams (as) daughters who married a none Syed?
Because Sayyidah is like a Haashimah. There is limited information regarding out Imaam's daughters and who our Imaam's daughters married. Please, find me some sort of SaHeeH khabar (hadeeth) that prohibits this type of marriage or at least seen as makrooh (disliked).

Wa `Alaykum Assalaam

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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:17 am

Abdullah bin Maisra narrates “I asked Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) “We recite durood upon Muhammad (saw) and Aal e Muhammad (as). Who are Aal e Muhammad (as)?” Imam (as) replied, “Aal e Muhammad (as) are those upon whom a nikkah of RasoolAllah (saw) is haram. They are the Holy Offspring of Bani Fatimiyah which will remain until the day of judgement”. In Mani ul Akhbar, page no 221,

This tradition was asking the Imam Jafar as Sadiq (as) regarding the Syeds of his time period and he stated they comprised all descendants of Fatima (sa) alive at the time (“Bani Fatimmiyah”). A Sayyid is a "Sayyid" and a Hashmi is a "Hashmi" this title, or term Sayeda is given to descendants of the Prophet (saw) through Bibi Fatima Zahra (sa) and Imam Ali (as).

So far you have only showed me somthing about Hashmites with all due respect they have nothing to do with a Syeda. Unless they have been distinguished by the Prophet (saw) off course from the rest of the Hashmites. Now once again can you show me the name of one Imam (as) daugther who married a None Syed? If not then how about starting with the ones (sa) you do know off?



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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Nader Zaveri on Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:56 am

Assalaamu `Alaykum
Silat_warrior110 wrote:Abdullah bin Maisra narrates “I asked Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) “We recite durood upon Muhammad (saw) and Aal e Muhammad (as). Who are Aal e Muhammad (as)?” Imam (as) replied, “Aal e Muhammad (as) are those upon whom a nikkah of RasoolAllah (saw) is haram. They are the Holy Offspring of Bani Fatimiyah which will remain until the day of judgement”. In Mani ul Akhbar, page no 221,
This is the hadeeth. (translation provided is a little off)
أبي رحمه الله قال حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله عن محمد بن الحسن عن جعفر بن بشير عن الحسين بن أبي العلاء عن عبد الله بن ميسرة قال ‏إنا نقول اللهم صل على محمد و آل محمد فيقول قوم نحن آل محمد فقال إنما آل محمد من حرم الله عز و جل على محمد نكاحه
Source:
  • Al-Sadooq, Ma`aanee Al-Akhbaar, pg. 93, hadeeth # 1

This hadeeth is da'eef, has majhool narrators in it.

الحسين بن أبي العلاء = Majhool
عبد الله بن ميسرة = Majhool

Once again, provide me with a SaHeeH hadeeth that prohibits the marraige of a sayyidah to a non sayyid guy.

Wa `Alaykum Assalaam

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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:20 am

Just because a narrator is not know, does not grade a hadith as been weak. Firstly let us come back to basics... What is a defention of a Sayyid?
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Nader Zaveri on Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:15 am

Assalaamu `Alaykum,
Silat_warrior110 wrote:Just because a narrator is not know, does not grade a hadith as been weak. Firstly let us come back to basics... What is a defention of a Sayyid?
Yes if a narrator is unknown, the hadeeth is to be graded weak and rejected, this is what the scholars grade aHaadeeth like. Shaheed Al-Thaanee, has talked about this in his treatise, Diraayah Al-Hadeeth.

A Sayyid is a person whose lineage traces back to the Ahl Al-Bayt (AS).

Wa `Alaykum Assalaam

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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:37 am

Al Kafi H 145, Ch. 17, h7

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from al-Nawfali from al-Sakuni from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following:


“Amir al-Mu’minin, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has said, ‘When you narrate a Hadith you must say who its narrator is. If it is true it will be for you and if it is false it will be his (the narrator’s) responsibility.

Now we are not looking at the Rijal of the Hadith here, but the context. And as for its context you have also confimred my point. Which is as you have mentioned

Quote

"A Sayyid is a person whose lineage traces back to the Ahl Al-Bayt (AS)."

Ok good! now we can move on to the next point. What has these hadiths you showed got to do with a Syeda? and I have answered your previous Questions and before I answer any more of yours. I shall repeat my Question, tell me one hadith where the Aima (as) gave there daugthers to none Syeds or at least tell me one Hadith that mentions the marriage of the ones that we do know off?
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Nader Zaveri on Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:00 pm

Assalaamu `Alaykum,
Silat_warrior110 wrote:Ok good! now we can move on to the next point. What has these hadiths you showed got to do with a Syeda? and I have answered your previous Questions and before I answer any more of yours. I shall repeat my Question, tell me one hadith where the Aima (as) gave there daugthers to none Syeds or at least tell me one Hadith that mentions the marriage of the ones that we do know off?
Now, I do not know any hadeeth off the top of my head, but what would this prove? The lack of something is not considered prohibition. Unless you have SaHeeH hadeeth that the Imaams forbade such an act.

Wa `Alaykum Assalaam

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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:51 pm

Sheikh al-Saduq (ra) is universally recognized as the first of the great Shia scholars. His title means “The truthful one amongst the scholars”. Shias accord him extreme veneration owing to the teaching his father received from Abul Qasim al-Husayn ibn Rawh (ra), the third agent of the Twelfth Imam (atf) during the Lesser Occultation. It was during such instruction his father gave the 12th Imam (atf)’s representative a letter asking God for a son. Al-Husayn ibn Rawh later said the Twelfth Imam (atf) had prayed to God and he would be rewarded with sons. The eldest was al-Shaykh al-Saduq (ra). Al-Saduq (ra) went on to wrote the first Risalah in Shia history thereby becoming the first ‘Mujthid’ according to the Usooli version of Shi’ism.

Sheikh Saduq (ra) states in I’tiqadatu’l Imamiyyah. “4385 - وقال الصادق عليه السلام: (المؤمنون بعضهم أكفاء بعض).” translated this reads “Believers are the kufv of one another.”

This is a general principle. It is also stated several times in the Qur’an. If we look at such a general statement in isolation it may seem that Syed’s daughters can be married to nonsyeds as all are believers. Indeed the Qur’an and Hadith also state that the criteria for marriage are piety, chastity etc. But the story does not end there.

In Islamic law if there exists a specific injunction running contrary to a general principle then it over-rides the general principle. For example the Qur’an says God is forgiving - however if a man murders then that man is not forgiven and he is executed. This shows how serious errors in law can occur if one adheres to general religious principles neglecting specific injunctions opposing them. Another example is that certain people, including a certain type of cleric, cites general principles on the suitability of a marriage partner neglecting the specific injunctions for syeds. This principle is still of great importance in Shia Islamic jurisprudence. Sheikh Saduq (ra) also uses this important method in legislating on the topic of the marriage of Syeds, What this first scholar of Shi’ism says is that Syeds have special rules over-turning the general principle that momineen are kufv of each other, including in marriage. Innumerable mujtahids follow his opinions to this day on this matter. . Here is the relevant section from the same work I’tiqadatu’l Imamiyyah [ A Shi’ite Creed], English translation, pages 99-100, Chapter

Chapter 41 – The belief concerning the Alids:

Shaykh Abu Ja'far [Sheikh Saduq]:

“Our belief concerning the Alids ('alawiya) [Syeds] is that they are the progeny of the Messenger of Allah, and that devotion to them is obligatory, because it is the requital of his apostleship. Says Allah, Exalted is He " Say (O Muhammad, unto mankind): I ask of you no requital therefor, save loving-kindness of (my) kinsfolk" [42, 23]. The acceptance of sadaqa is forbidden to them, because it is the dirt contained in the hands of the people. And there is no purification for them (the people) save what they give to their (sadat's) slaves and slave-girls, or to one another. But as for the khumus, this is permitted to them in lieu of the zakat, which was forbidden to them.

And our belief concerning those (sadat or alawiya) who act sinfully is that they will be punished doubly, and those who do good acts among them will receive a double reward [Sheikh Sadooq citing this tradition from his work Ma’ani-ul-Akhbar]. They are all equal to one another in view of the Prophet's saying!, when he looked at the sons of Abu Talib, namely Ali and Ja'far Tayyar : “Our daughters are like our sons, and our sons, like our daughters” [ now for those who would say Sheikh Saduq (rh) is not talking about marriage, then they should also know that the hadith Saduq is citing comes from his book Man la Yahdaral Faqih where Saduq has put it in the Book of Nikah (marriage), chapter kufv, page 249].”

The actual Arabic of the final paragraph is as follows:

وبعضهم أكفاء بعض، لقول النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم حين نظر إلى بنين وبنات علي وجعفر ابني (أبي) طالب: (بناتنا كبنينا، وبنونا كبناتنا)

Incidentally the English translation for kufv is not ‘equal’ it actually means ‘compatible’, anyhow this does not weaken the argument. Sheikh Saduq (ra) breaks the belief down further saying the rule is not applicable to all the children of Ali (as) only to the Bani Fatimiyyah.

According to Sheikh Saduq (ra), (who was Shia Islam’s first mujtahid according to some and others a traditionalist), unlike the general Ummah the Syeds have special laws pertaining to money AND to marriage. According to Sheikh Saduq (ra) unlike other believers the Syeds are forbidden sadaqa, they are permitted khums, and their children are a match only for each other in marriage. This is stated in 2 important works including his most important of Man la Yahdaral Faqih and also in I’tiqadatu’l Imamiyyah (a statement of Shia laws and beliefs). Sheikh Saduq (ra)’s reasoning is followed to this day by someshia mujtahids who agree with Sheikh Sadooq (ra) on this matter to this day.
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Nader Zaveri on Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:05 am

Silat_warrior110 wrote:
The actual Arabic of the final paragraph is as follows:

وبعضهم أكفاء بعض، لقول النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم حين نظر إلى بنين وبنات علي وجعفر ابني (أبي) طالب: (بناتنا كبنينا، وبنونا كبناتنا)
Here are the hadeeth you've presented. They are da'eef because of being mursal (no sanad attached).

وَ نَظَرَ النَّبِيُّ ص إِلَى أَوْلَادِ عَلِيٍّ وَ جَعْفَرٍ ع فَقَالَ بَنَاتُنَا لِبَنِينَا وَ بَنُونَا لِبَنَاتِنَا
وَ قَالَ الصَّادِقُ ع الْمُؤْمِنُونَ بَعْضُهُمْ أَكْفَاءُ بَعْضٍ
Source:
  • Al-Sadooq, Man Laa YaHDuruh Al-Faqeeh, vol. 3, pg. 393, hadeeth # 4384 & 4385


This has nothing to do with marriages. Brother, careful with Qiyaas, this is severely condemend in Islaam. You cannot take this and think that it is talking about Sayyid and Non-Sayyid marriages, this is Qiyaas and it is forbidden.

There is no mention about not marrying a Sayyid girl with a Sayyid guy, this is a bid`ah done by the people, it is best to leave this practice.

Wa `Alaykum Assalaam

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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:48 am

Now this hadith might be weak in the principal of Rijal, however can you deny history? let us say for arguments sake it is not Sahih. Amir al-Mu’minin (as) said, ‘When you narrate a Hadith you must say who its narrator is. If it is true it will be for you and if it is false it will be his (the narrator’s) responsibility. Whos words Shall I take, yours? or Imam Ali (as)?

Irrespective of the hadith been Sahih or not the fact remains the same which is in the intial context of the hadith, did the childeren of Abu Talib (as) and Hazrat Jaffar Tayyar (as) marry one and another? "Yes They Did!" Thus my point has been proven anyway. Unless you can prove that the Childeren of Abu Talib (as) and Jaffar Tayyar (as) did not marry one and another?


"There is no mention about not marrying a Sayyid girl with a Sayyid guy, this is a bid`ah done by the people" Your where not around at that time, are you a Biadh also? Neither was this concept of Rijal which you are trying to apply which has not value according to any of the Hadiths of the Aima (as) anyway this is not a thread on Rijal or Bidah.

Qiyas is haram, and I am not in favour of it either, as mentioned before, this is the evidance of Shikeh Sadooq (rh) which I have mentioned above. Sadly you have not answered a single Question of mine, and you have posted several which I have replied to everyone of them. Why don't you start by telling me how many of the Imam (as) daugthers married outside? give me one hadith at least even If it weak (makes your life easy) or tell me the name of one of there (as) daugthers who we know of, who married a none syed (mazallah). I appreciate you stick to my Question as I have previously done with you.
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by alialiali on Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:34 pm

ok, shocking, silaat worrior, why couldn't you choose worldcup lol,, grrr lol.


Nader Zaveri

123. Jealousy in woman is unpardonable but in man it is a sign of his faith in religion (because Islam has permitted polygamy and prohibited polyandry).

nahjal balagah

a man marrying more then one wife and a woman can ONLY marry one just shows you that all women have more restriction then men, obviously we're higher in many ways. (note there's no LOL after that comment)

thats jealousy of what you said nader (unpardonable) lol, if your not a syed then you should understand there are 2 differences in this world of mine and yours.

rasool paak (saw) and family(saw) and the non-syeds and their families, whether whites, blacks, chineese, jatt, baynse, paki, indian, japaneese, auuustralian, umm germany vs spain playing soon. These are your divides, sects, casts, groups. attack these groups not one whos showing pride of being maulas (saw) son/daughter.

Even the sahabis (as) didn't say we are equal to any of rasools (saw) side, apart from UMARI'S BAKRI'S, UZZIES, so its the sunnah of umar the great to try and gocompare.com jealousy runs through your viens nader .....

Your're calling rasool paak (saw) and his family belonging to a cast system? are you out you're mind............... arghhh lol.

umar peh lanat

your understanding of a syed is wrong, you may aswel define syed as sir.

due to non syeds maybe even your forefathers (if youre not a syed), syeds have had to hide their faith, beliefs, so non syeds wouldn't murder them for being the sons and daughters of rasool (saw) paak. And now syeds openly walk the land.


you can't provide one hadith as warrior asked for, where's your grounds?you jealousy and hate for the blood of maula (saw)?

Nader, provide a unheard, fabricated, unrecognised , sunni/shia/ hadith. A piece of history of yazeeds side even, confirming that a daughter of maula (saw) married one of your type of people (non-syed if you are)........... just a small job,,


syeds rule the world .. and maula (saw) provide the rules...


Last edited by alialiali on Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by alialiali on Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:44 pm

silaat warrior, just to avoid opening another thread (dont want to waste the paper lol)

evidence on sadqa and zakaat being haram on syeds

have you info on this and ref., maybe this might also help Nader alittle more to understand a few basics of backward traditions that have been missed or rejected by forward traditioned people... ehem.

no offence by the way nader.

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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Nader Zaveri on Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:02 pm

Salaamun `Alaykum,

Whether or not they never married, which I do not know for certain, that doesn't mean it is haraam for a sayyid girl to marry a non-sayyid guy. That is like saying, "Rasoolillaah (SAWAS) and the Imaams (AS) never went to Europe, so that means going to Europe is haraam". That is an illogical argument. The lack of something not being done doesn't necessitate that the that act is haraam. Even if we take that hadeeth as SaHeeH, then that has nothing to do with anything. Al-Akfaa' in the arabic language means "compatibility", and according to the Qur'aan what is a two believing people suppose to judge off of? Not if they are Sayyid or not, but if they have taqwa.

Please provide me with numerous traditions that shows the daughters of the Imaams marrying Sayyids.

This grading system of the narrators was first introduced by Imaam `Alee (AS) in sermon 209 of Nahj Al-Balaaghah, but was later developed more and more. Our classical scholars such as Al-Sadooq's teacher, Ibn Waleed, graded narrators. Also, Al-Sadooq, himself has used this. Don't forget Al-Toosi, has dedicated a whole section to break down narrators and whose traditions are to be accepted and when it is not to be accepted, this is in his book Al-`Uddah. Plus, `Ilm Al-Hadeeth and `Ilm Al-Rijaal are sciences, sciences develop overtime and get more precise. For example, biology, it started off very rudimentary but progressed and developed and became intricate as time as gone along.

Also, in the Qur'aan, Allaah (SWT) made Zaynab, Prophet (SAWAS) cousin, to marry Zayd bin Haaritha, who was a non-Sayyid.

Here is what Makarem Sheeraazee has said concerning the sayyid girl marrying a non-sayyid guy:
52Marriage of Girls of Bani Hashim with other Tribes
Question: Your highness has said in the first issue of the book “New Estefta’aat” that there were lots of cases of marriage of daughters of Bani Hashim with Men of other tribes at the beginning of Islam and the age of pure Imams (a.s.). Please express some cases with acceptable proof.
Answer: One clear example is marriage of Zaynab, prophet’s (s.a.) cousin, with Zayd ibn Harithah which has been mentioned explicitly in holy Qur’an. Another example is marriage of Zuba’ah, granddaughter of Abdul Muttalib, with Miqdad which has been mentioned in cabbala. Specially, it has been affirmed beneath the cabbala that prophet (s.a.) said: “I performed this act in order to expand the issue of marriage among people and to remove obstacles and shakles”.1 Lots of Maraji’ of our time like Ayatollah Khoei and Ayatollah Golpayegani which are from Sadaat of Bani Zahra (s.a.) have also married their daughters to non-Sayyed men.
1- Wasael al-Shi’a, vol. 14, page 45, chapter 26, Hadith 1, 2 &5
http://english.makarem.ir/estefta/?it=652&mit=19



Here is an opinion by Grand Ayatollah Roohaanee concerning a Sayyid girls marriage with a non-sayyid guy:
Question: Asalaam o Alaikum can sayed zadi get marry with non sayed boy ? thanks Tasawar abbas jafri chakwal (pakistan)
Answer: Yes,the marriage is correct.
ID:72
http://www.emamrohani.net/estefta/ans.php?subid=1&set=2

FaDlullaah:
Q: Is it permissible for a male Sayyed (a descendant of Prophet Mohammad (p.)) to marry a woman that is not a descendant of Prophet Mohammad (p.)? 2/11/2006 12:01:35 PM

A: It is permissible for the Hachimate man/woman to marry a non-Hachimate woman/man, and there is no problem in the Sharia concerning this issue.

[Answered by Sayed Fadhlallah]
http://english.bayynat.org.lb/QA/qa.aspx?id=76

Khamenei:
To Marry a Sayyidah Girl
Q: Is it permissible for a non-sayyid boy to marry a sayyidah girl?
A: It is permissible.
Source: http://www.leader.ir...s/EN/index.php#

Sistaanee:
Question: Can a Sayyid girl marry a non-Sayyid man?
Answer: It is permissible and there is no objection to it.

Source: http://www.sistani.o...n...=530&page=2

Makarem Sheeraazee:
Question: Sadaat have extraordinary respect in Pakistan, even unrighteous Sadaat; because it was the superiors of Sadaat who introduced Islam to other than Sadaat. Therefore, other than Sadaat don’t consider it permitted to marry Sadaat girls and Sadaat also believe that this act is disrespecting the dynasty of prophet (s.a.), and this is very important for them in the way that if someone violates that then some of young persons and even elders get emotional and in these cases kill the husband of that girl! As it has been performed some months ago in Lahore! And this accident has printed in newspapers of Pakistan with big title and most people admired this act. And there is no doubt that if Sayyeda marries a non-Sayyed then it will have corruptions, and vilifies the sect of Shi’a and Shiite scholars, too; because all of Sunni brothers in Pakistan believe that it is not permitted for a Sayyeda girl to marry a non-Sayyed boy. Please say that:
1) If there are corruptions in marriage of Sayyeda and non-Sayyed and it causes family problems and desecration of the faith and sec of Ahl al-Bait (a.s.) then in such cases, is it permissible to perform this act?
2) If there is a man appropriate for a Sayyeda girl in her family then is it permissible for her to marry a non-Sayyed man, while her father has dead and her grandfather doesn’t agree with this act?
Answer: Essentially, it doesn’t have problem for daughters of respected Sadaat to marry non-Sayyed men, and in the age of prophet (s.a.) and infallible Imams (a.s.) it has happened lots of times that Sayyeda girls married non-Sayyed persons, and infallibles (a.s.) didn’t prohibit that. But if it causes social corruption for certain then people should abstain that and gradually familiarize people with this Islamic ruling. And killing a Muslim is one of the greatest sins and has Qisas.
http://english.makarem.ir/estefta/?it=652&mit=19

Muhammad Sa'eef Hakim:
Q [14] I want to ask that can a syed shia girl marry a non syed shia boy is it allowed. Some people say that if such marriage happens that couple will not live a happy life. They will face more problems in life than others. Is this true
It is allowed and there is no foundation to such fear.
Q [15] Is marriage of Sayyed woman to a non-Sayyed man allowed?
There is nothing in the holy Quran or in the traditions of the prophet and of the Ahlulbyte that prohibits such a marriage. Furthermore, religious texts reported that devotees are equal to each other. In addition, several texts stated that the prophet and the Ahlulbyte said: ""If you are satisfied with the religion and ethics of the man that is seeking marriage from your family, then by all means accept him. If you do not, a big disorder and sedition will occur". The messenger of Allah himself implemented this practically according to what is narrated by Imam Sadiq: "The messenger of Allah married Dhubaa the daughter of his uncle Zubair the son of Abdul Muttalib to Muqdad bin Amro. He did that to show (that) the marriage is simple, for you to act similarly and to know that the noblest among you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct”. Zubair was a full brother to Abdullah (the prophet's father) and to Abu Talib (Imam Ali's father)".
Q [16] I have read on your site that it is permissible for a syed girl to marry a non syed boy. Are there any conditions to this?
It is permissible and there are no specific conditions. Yes, respecting the wife when she is a Sayyida is confirmed as it is guarding the noble lineage of the messenger of Allah (peace be upon Him and His holy progeny).
http://english.alhakeem.com/pages/quesans/listgroup_ques.php?numpage=2&Where=62



As you can see, all of the MAJOR grand ayatollahs have allowed for a Sayyid girl to marry a non-sayyid guy. And some of them have even said that there is nothing in the Qur'aan or Hadeeth that forbid such an act. Also, some of them mention that our Ahl Al-Bayt (AS) allowed their daughters to marry non-sayyid guys, plus our `ulemaa have said it is okay.

Once again, this is bid`ah.

Wa `Alaykum Assalaam

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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:14 am

Brother "alialiali" thanks for your post however the issue of Sadqah has nothing to do with this topic. I agree that Sadqah is haram upon not only Sayyids but also Hashmites and it is considered as dirty money for them. Coming back to issues that Brother Nader raised, I am disspointed that I had kinldy requested him to stick to my inital Question. And as you can see that was not done. But rather I have got a copy and paste of several rullings from websites to try to justify the lawfulness of the marriage of a Syeda with a Ummti. I will touch on his post covering all major points raised.

Can we identify a Person with Taqwa?

It is impossible for us to recognise the virtue of a person who has Taqwa as it is only known to Masoomeen (as). and Allah (swt). An apparently very pious person maybe in disguise and yet be running after worldly benefits and not have any fear of Allah (swt). In addition, its time dependent virtue and a person is under a constant possibility of change. A pious person might become heinous and a wicked person through repentance might become righteous. This is a day-to-day observation. A person sunken in sins may achieve the success towards the end of his life and vice versa. A Muslim might become anything other than a muslim and so is the opposite. A ‘Muttaqee’ person may spoil his many years ‘Ibada’ for a little worldly reward, the example of this are quoted here from the Quran.

“And recite to them the narratives of him to whom we gave our communication (Ayaat) but he withdrew himself from them, so the Shaitan took over him and he became of those led astray.” (175:7). “And if we had pleased we certainly would have exalted him thereby, but he clung to the earth and followed his low desire. So his example is as the example of the dog; if you attack him he lolls out his tongue and if you leave him alone he lolls out his tongue, this is the example of those who reject Ayaat; therefore relate the narrative that they may ponder over.” (176:7)


This verse concerns Wali Balam baaur who was from Bani Israel and was given Ism - E – Azam, and all his prayers were answered by virtue of this Ism. He got inclined towards pharaoh against 50 gold coins and prayed against Musa (as). Please refer to Tafseer - E – Qummi. He lost the ‘Ism’ and the rest is all very obvious in the verses themselves. These happenings are almost common and are well termed as a dog lolling out his tongue, loved or not.

“And Musa chose out of his people 70 men for our appointment; so when the earthquake over took them, he said: my ‘RABB’! if thou hadst pleased, thou hadst destroyed them before and myself (too); will thou destroy us for what the fools amongst us have done? It is not but thy trial, thou makest err with it whom thou pleasest and guidest whom thou pleasest: thou art our guardian, therefore forgive us and have mercy on us, and thou art the best of forgivers.” (155:7) This verse is further supported by (55:2)


These 70 persons chosen by Musa (as) were the most pious ones as per Musa (as)’s best knowledge. As per Tafseer – E – Safi when they arrived on the mountain they told Musa (as) that they will not bring faith unless they see Allah (swt) with their own eyes and apparent. Musa (as) who was a prophet and Rasool, had been given the book, had a Sharayya, was supplemented and fortified with ‘Ismat’ by Allah (swt). If he could not make a correct choice how can a common person do so? His choice of pious ones ended up to be Munafeqeen, so how could ours not be?


This example was given to Saeed Ibn – E – Jubair by Imam – E – Zamana (as) as a reason of disqualification of humans to install / appoint a caliph. In other words Imam – E – Zamana (as) has rejected the ability of all the creation to identify Muttaqee and had further supplemented the argument of uncertain choices ending up in hypocrites. Incident is citied in Hayat – ul – Qaloob book of by Allama Majlisee (ra).

Did they or Didn't they marry outside?

Imam Hasan (as) had 5 daughters: Umm Abd Allah, Fatima the elder, Umm Salma, Ruqaiyya and Fatima the younger. Shia historians provide clear information about the marriage of only one of them – Umm Abd Allah who was married to a Syed [Abu al-Hasan al-'Amili, Diya' al-Amilin, vol. 2. Al-Dur al-Nazim, serial 2879; Usul al-Kafi, vol. 1, p. 469].

Imam Hussain (as) had two daugthers, due to the age of the Youngest daugther Bibi Ruqaiyh (as) she was martyed and did not marry. However the oldest daugther Bibi Zaynab (sa) was married. After she (sa) was taken as a captive Yazeed (la) showed his intention by proposing to Bibi Zaynab (sa) to marry a high-ranking Syrian courtier – the man was not a syed. Zainab (sa) replied that the laws forbidding the daughter of Imam Husain (as), who was the daughter of a syed, to be given to the Syrian courtier were no lie and so serious that if Yazeed violated them he would become a kaffir. Yazeed then forbade the Syrian. There is no mention in the tradition of whether concubinage or marriage was the topic of the laws the difference is one sense artificial . What Hadhrath Zainab (sa) said was she adhered to was a specific set of strict laws known even to the sunnis and enemies of ahl-ul-bayt like Yazeed – these laws strictly restricted who the daughters of Syeds can be given to and was inviolable and punishable by death since the one who broke them became an apostate according to her [Shia references: Munthahil Aamaal, Volume 1 pages 432 - 433 (Iran)Shaykh Abbas Qummi, Nufs'ul Mahamoon page 447 (Iran), Majalis page 31 by Shaykh Saduq Amali and Rozhathul Waizoon page 164. Sunni reference available in English in The History of Tabari Volume 19 page 171 (English translation by I.K.A Howard)]. Mufti Ghulam Rasool has also said that this shows Zainab (sa) believed the daughters of syeds could not be given to nonsyeds [Hasab and Nasab].

Isa bin Zaid bin Ali (ra) grandson of 4th Imam (as) says that he could not marry his daughter as the suitor would be a nonsyed. He prayed instead that his only daughter die rather than marry a nonsyed – God ACCEPTED his prayer. [Umdat ul Matalab page no 278]. Hence the earliest syeds believed that death was preferable for their daughters than marry a none syed.

Further evidance can be found from the life of Imam Musa al Kadhim (as) who had 21 daughters and he refused to marry even one of them [Sheikh Abbas Qummi, Muntahee – Ul – Amaal, volume 2, page 243

Rigid attitude of Imam Redha (as) and Imam Mohammad at Taqi (as) on this matter. In the History of Ibn E Wazih Yaqoobi volume 2, page 415 published in Qum, it is mentioned that Imam Musa Kazim (as) left a will that his daughters remain unmarried,and Imam Redha (as) acted on this dictate. This can only have been as there were no syeds – Imam Musa al Kadhim (as) knew none would be born who would reach marriageable age in the lifetime of these ladies before they left their own marriageable age hence he stipulated in his Will that they would not be married unless Imam Raza (as) agreed which he did not, nor did his son Imam Taqi (as) after him. Masooma - E – Qum (sa) was the sister of Imam Redha (as). Why is she called ‘Masooma’ ? One reason is as she was a virgin. Yet the age of this lady Fatima bint Musa Kazim (sa) was according to Nuzhat – Ul – Abrar 18 and ‘The history of Masooma (as)’ page 415 by Amad Zadeh Asphahani, states that she was 22 at the time of her death, an age by which in those times girls had been married off. She had had proposals from the most rich and powerful muslims.



]In Anwaar Al Masahaseen (book) it is recorded that Mamoon Ar Rashid caliph, had a desire to marry Masooma E Qum and for that reason he got his daughters married to Imam Raza (as) and Imam Taqi (as). However the two holy Imams while accepting the marriage of their own selves / sons with nonsyed brides absolutely forbade any daughter of a syed marrying. Imam Musa Kazim (as) had willed that none of his daughters was to marry without the permission of Imam Raza (as) [“…and if anyone of the brothers wants his sister to get married, he must get his [Imam al-Rida’s] permission.” Usul al-Kafi, vol.1, p.317]. The Holy 8th Imam (as) like his father before him never gave it. Masooma E Qum (sa) hence never married and died at the age of 22. The Holy 9th Imam Mohammad at Taqi (as) acted as had his ancestors and did not permit the daughters of Imam Musa al Kadhim (as) marriage. Again there was no syed of marriageable age for these ladies. He apportioned them estates to provide for them once they reached old age as they were not to be married.

The list is endless and based on the content of the hadith of The Holy Prophet (s) said ‘Our daughters are for our sons and our sons for our daughters.’ We can see that their actions showed what this means in practical terms. The Imams went to extreme lengths through the example of their own conduct to make it clear that the daughters of syeds could not be married to nonsyeds no matter what the circumstances. Male syeds were strongly encouraged to marry syed’s daughters wherever possible to enable this. Occasional There is not one reliable evidence that the Holy Imams ever gave permission for their daughters to be married to nonsyeds. There is strong evidence to the contrary that they always refused.

MUJTAHIDS WHO FORBID MARRIAGE OF DAUGHTERS OF SYEDS TO NONSYEDS


We have seen that Sheikh Saduq (ra) forbade these marriages. Throughout history a major thread to Shia thinking has opposed these marriages. In recent history several mujtahids have declared such marriages haram. Some examples (from many) are:

The Shia mujtahid Allamah Sayyid Hamid Hussain. originally an Indian. Senior Iranian ulema said he was the greatest scholar in the entire Shia world for part of the 19th century. Among other works he wrote the 18 volume refutation of Taufa Ithna Ashari ‘Abqat al Anwar’ where he has detailed why the marriage of the daughter of a syed to a nonsyed is strictly forbidden. The Iranian mujtahid Ayatullah Seyyid Muhsin Amili wrote in his 'A'ayanu Shia' about Sayyid Hamid Hussain "A man of his eloquence, proficiency in Traditions, Islamic history and Theology is not to be found during his time. In fact,neither before nor after. If we said that a scholar of his status has not appeared after the era of Mufeed and Murtadha, would not be an exaggeration…" Well, Syed Hamid Hussain declared the marriage of the daughter of a syed to a nonsyed haram in Abqat al Anwar.

The most prominent from the twentieth century include Allama (‘Ayatullah’) Ali Naqi Naqi (Naqan Sahib), Professor of Shia Theology at the Aligarh Muslim University of India, whose knowledge was praised by Syed Khomeini. When asked this question about the marriage of a nonsyed to a female syed he replied his ruling that “This is forbidden, it is wrong.”


Allama Ali Naqi Naqi A detailed discussion on why such a marriage is haram is found in the book by the great Indian mujtahid of Lucknow, Allama (‘Ayatullah’) Nasir-ul-Millat Nasir Husain of Lucknow, for many years the pre-eminent shia mujtahid of the Indian subcontinent, and who states in the section dealing with the absolute impossibility of the marriage of a syed’s daughter to a nonsyed owing to the lack of kufv, in his work “If’haamul aadaae wal khusoom.”


he modern Marja-e-Taqlid ‘Grand Ayatullah’ Hussain Bakhsh Jarra (Sheikh Jarra) authored the resalah Anwar-ush-Shariais. He expands in Lum’at-ul-anwar fi aqaid-ul-abraar”on this topic, quoting I’tiqadatu’l Imamiyyah by Sheikh Suduq (ra), which we have already referred to. ‘Ayatullah’ Jarra writes on page 336 on Lum’at-ul-anwar fi aqaid-ul-abraar: "And Syeds are the kufv of each other because the Holy Prophet (s) looked at two of Hadhrath Abu Talib (as)’s sons Ali (as) and Jafar (as) and proclaimed that our daughters are for our sons and our sons are for our daughters.” Specifying marriage on page 337 ‘Ayatullah’ Jarra says: "point 5- in marriage the syeds are the kufv only of each other.” On the last page of this book the Marja gives the list of those scholars along with signed certificates who have given him permission to do ijtihad. They include leading members of the current Usooli establishment: Ayatullah ul Udhma Mirza Mohammad Hassan-ul-Bazdi [ijaza given on page 422]; Ayatullah ul Udhma Syed Mohsin Hakeem Tabatabaai [page 423]; Ayatullah ul Udhma Mohammad Baqir Zanjani [page 423]; Ayatullah ul Udhma Syed Hussein al Moosvi [page 424]; Ayatullah ul Udhma Syed Mohammad Jawad Tabrizi [page 426]; Ayatullah ul Udhma Syed Mahmood Husseini Shahroodi [page 427]; Ayatullah ul Udhma Syed Abdullah Moosvi Shirazi [page 428]; Ayatullah ul Udhma Sheikh Mohammad Taqi Razi [page 432]; Ayatullah ul Udhma Syed Hassan ul Moosvi [page 425]. Ayatullah Jarra’s students include ‘Grand Ayatollah’ Muhammad Hussain Najafi, currently the second most senior mujathid in Najaf after ‘Grand Ayatollah’ Sistani, Allama Safdar Hussain Najafi, Qazi Niaz Hussain Naqvi Najafi and Qazi Fayyaz Hussain Naqvi.


Sheikh Mufeed considered one of the Great Scholars of the Shias and was the author of a well known book by the name of Kitab al Irshad. In this book it contains great details of the life of our Prophet (saw) and the Imams (as). According to the reserach of Sheikh Mufeed he also list the names of the childeren of the Imams (as). My personal suggestion to you is, if you are unaware of who the Imam (as) childeren where, then refer back to this book and name me just one of any of the 11 Imams (as) immediate childeren who married outside? now who are the people of Bidah doimg other then the Sunnah of the Aima (as)?
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Re: What is your view regarding this..

Post by Nader Zaveri on Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:56 am

Assalaamu `Alaykum,

By the way, can you give me a source from Al-Sadooq that says exactly that a non-sayyid girl can marry a sayyid guy. What you've done is interpreted his words, and try to make it out as if he didn't approve as such.

Al-Mufeed never said anything about about non-sayyid girl's marriage with a sayyid guys. Once again, you've "interpreted" his words.

According to Naasir Makaarim Sheeraazee:
Also, in the Qur'aan, Allaah (SWT) made Zaynab, Prophet (SAWAS) cousin, to marry Zayd bin Haaritha, who was a non-Sayyid.

Here is what Makarem Sheeraazee has said concerning the sayyid girl marrying a non-sayyid guy:
Question:Your highness has said in the first issue of the book “New Estefta’aat” that there were lots of cases of marriage of daughters of Bani Hashim with Men of other tribes at the beginning of Islam and the age of pure Imams (a.s.). Please express some cases with acceptable proof.
Answer:One clear example is marriage of Zaynab, prophet’s (s.a.) cousin, with Zayd ibn Harithah which has been mentioned explicitly in holy Qur’an. Another example is marriage of Zuba’ah, granddaughter of Abdul Muttalib, with Miqdad which has been mentioned in cabbala. Specially, it has been affirmed beneath the cabbala that prophet (s.a.) said: “I performed this act in order to expand the issue of marriage among people and to remove obstacles and shakles”.1 Lots of Maraji’ of our time like Ayatollah Khoei and Ayatollah Golpayegani which are from Sadaat of Bani Zahra (s.a.) have also married their daughters to non-Sayyed men.
1- Wasael al-Shi’a, vol. 14, page 45, chapter 26, Hadith 1, 2 &5
http://english.makarem.ir/estefta/?it=652&mit=19

And based off of his other answers, he says there were daughters of the Imaams who've married non Sayyids.

All you're doing is giving me "guess work" and "interpretation" to why the daughters didn't marry. There isn't anything explicit. This questions has been asked a 1000 times on Shiachat, you should use the search engine, and see those threads provided, the people have answered the questions fully.

And by the way, do not copy and paste from that "hubeali" website, that website if fitnah, and you should avoid from going on that site. I've already heard their lame argument, it is full of Qiyaas and interpretation of scholars word, there is NO explicit nass (qur'aan or hadeeth) to prove this.

And by the way, who are those other "ayatollahs" you've mentioned? Can give you me their website and their link? Or scanned image of their book?

Whether you like it or not, this is a bid`ah.

Wa `Alaykum Assalaam.

Nader Zaveri
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