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"Draw-Muhammad-Day"

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by Rational Mind on Fri May 28, 2010 2:49 pm

azadaar110 wrote:Sorry, I seem to have not read that part of his post.

How can we be Shabihs of the Aimmah (as)? Astaghfirullah.

Yes, we represent them in some way being their descendents and as Syeds we have more duties than others, we have to show that we are Their desendents, but how can we be their Shabihs? We don't deserve the same respect and love as the Aimmah (as) obviously. You said above that a replica deserves the same respect, but we are not 'replicas' of the Aimmah (as) Maazallah.

If the shirt of a prophet (as) can be His (as)'s shabih, then why cant syeds as the flesh and blood of the Aimma (as)? We are not talking about an exact replica or foto image, shabih as in something that represents and relates to the original ie the Aimma (as)?

Do you believe the Alam made of common wood and cloth is an exact replica of the Alam Of Mola (as) in kerbala? or is it a visual simile of the Alam of karbala?

Is the jhoola the actual jhoola, or an exact replica of the one in karbala? If not then why do you not object to it?
Is the zuljenah the exact copy of the one in karbala?

The answer is no, it is the association that makes something a shabih.
A shabih is the association of something common with something specific.
We as syeds are common people but because of our association with our Aimma (as) who are forefathers, we have the respect and elevated kufv.
How many syeds are meritorious of this respect and status on their own? the answer has to be not many!But it is our association with Mola(as) which does this. This is why sadaq is haram on us and khums is halal for us.

So now tell me about the syeds not being shabihs as an association with the Aimma (as).

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by Rational Mind on Fri May 28, 2010 2:56 pm

Silat_warrior110 wrote:When it comes to hindus, they do not consider them self as Idol worshipers. If you where to ask a true Hindu as to why they worship a Idol they will tell you that they are using it as Shabih to come closer to god. And they are not worshiping the idol directly but rather that Idol represents a certain attribute of God. Now If you say God does not have a image then, yes you are right in sayying so.. how is creating images of holy Imams (as) and prophets (as) any differant from hindus who keep the same principal us when having a idol? we can also apply the same logic to creating somthing and sayying it is Allah (swt) Shabi. or in this case a Shabi of the Imam (as) or a Prophet (saw).

No I am not against Shabihs nor did I say it is haram in any of my posts, however the intial issue is creating a image to ones understanding and sayying this is a Sahbih of a Imam (as). As I said before, instead of using a face it can replaced with light. Is a Sayyid a Shabih of the Imam (as) ? well the reality is they are the progeny of the Messenger of Allah, and that devotion to them is obligatory, because it is the requital of his apostleship (saw). As it is mentioned in the Quran "Say (0 Muhammad, unto mankind): I ask of you no requital therefor, save loving - kindness of (my) kinsfolk" [42, 23]. But likewise act those who Sayyids who act sinfully will be punished doubly, and those who do good acts among them will receive a double reward. This is the nearest association a Sayyid has to the Ahlulbayt (as). But If however one believes that a Sayyid is a Shahbi then they should not have the need of having alams or taboots when in reality the living shabahi is in there own physical presence or they must go find a sayyid.

You seem to be giving very confused responses.

How does a hindus attribution of the avtars (gods) attributes to an idol relate to a shabih of the Aimma (as)?

Allah does not have an image hence you cannot attribute an image to Allah as then you are committing shirk by associating something to Allah (swt) which is not Allah (swt).

The Aimma (as) had physical forms, so to say something is a shabih of mola (as) can be done. The hindu argument is misconcieved.

Please do try again with a rational argument that actually does not contradict itself.

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Fri May 28, 2010 11:09 pm

There is no confusion brother and you have avoid my Questions and points that have been raised. If you are sayying anything which is associated with the attributes of God is shirk, then why is not drawing a picture of the Imams (as) and the Prophet (as)? you say God has no physical image, then whos hand came out of the veil in miraj is that shirk in your eyes?

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by azadaar110 on Sat May 29, 2010 5:03 am

Subhanallah Smile point to be noted!

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by Azadar E Mazloom on Sat May 29, 2010 7:03 am

Sorry brother Silat, but some issues with you above comments...

Firstly, brother RM is referring to Allah (swt) NOT the Aima Ma'sumin (as). The whole argument is, Allah (swt) does not, never did and never will have a form whereas the Aima Ma'sumin (as) did. Unless of course you go down the 'literal route'?

Otherwise, using your argument, mazallah the Ka'aba is also shirk as it's a replica of the the baital Mehmor?

What about the Qur'an? I,e is on a tablet preserved with god?

What about Shezada Ali Akbar (as) who was a shabih of our Holy Prophet Muhammad (s)?

Obviously there are many more examples but you get my point right?

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Sat May 29, 2010 11:49 am

If Allah (swt) does not have any shape or form, then whos hand came from behind the veil?

I am not against the idea of Shabih, but why you putting the Quran and the Kabba on the same level as the Aima (as). Yes make Shabihs of what you like, but not of the Prophet (saw) or the Imams (as) as this is bringing the status down of the Ahlulbayt (as) to the level of mans imagination. Would you accept the image of a fat man been a shabih of the Imam (as)?

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by Azadar E Mazloom on Sat May 29, 2010 5:06 pm

Lol, brother Silat, if you read my post carefully, you would have seen me state the following...

Allah (swt) does not, never did and never will have a form whereas the Aima Ma'sumin (as) did. Unless of course you go down the 'literal route'?

Lo and behold that's EXACTLY what you did lol.

When Allah (swt) refers to Imam Ali (as) as Wajhullah, Asadullah etc etc, is that also in a literal sense (ndb) or otherwise?

If you believe (Mazallah) that Imam Ali (as) are the actual face of Allah (swt) then I believe we should open a separate thread but if not, why not adopt the same principle to the ''veil''?

I have addressed the issue of the hand behind the veil but please don't try changing the topic to that of the veil purposefully or otherwise. I simply will not entertain it!

For the record, I used other holy shabis as an 'example' and NOT a comparison. Please understand the difference.

Now if you could please address my previous post Smile

Maula (as) waris

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Sun May 30, 2010 1:15 am

No brother you are confusing yourself with what I have asked. I am not refering to the Kunyas of the Imams (as), I am refering to the incident where the physical hand came from behind the veil and it was the hands of Allah (swt), unless you are sayying the event of Miraj was a spirtual rather then physical?.....

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by Azadar E Mazloom on Sun May 30, 2010 6:14 am

Please read my previous post again brother Smile

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Sun May 30, 2010 7:12 am

So you are rejecting the fact that a hand did not appear from behind a veil?

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by Azadar E Mazloom on Sun May 30, 2010 7:17 am

Please read my above comments and ponder of the term 'literalism' for a moment Razz

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Sun May 30, 2010 9:02 am

so you have rejected that a hand ever came out from behind a veil... Sad?

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

Post by Azadar E Mazloom on Sun May 30, 2010 9:47 am

Brother Silat, please read my comments above and let me know exactly which part you didn't understand Smile

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Re: "Draw-Muhammad-Day"

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