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Becoming a True Believer

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What makes you a Believer?

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Becoming a True Believer

Post by kambar on Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:32 am

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WHAT MAKES YOU A MOMIN

Note:
There is a big difference between a "muslim" and a "momin".
In this discussion, we are not talking about becoming a muslim.

How does a person become a true believer?

What do I say?

I say its by simply reading and accepting this creed:

" There is no God except Allah. Mohammad is Messenger of Allah. Ali is Guardian of Allah and the Successor of the Messenger of Allah and his immediate Representiative. "

That is the true doctrine of Islam which any seeker of truth needs to recite if he or she wishes to become a believer in the sight of God.

Actions and efforts have nothing to do with being a believer.

It is love for Allah, Nabi and Ali that makes you a Momin.

Its really that simple if you think about it after reading the Holy Quran.

What do you say?


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Last edited by kambar on Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:40 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling correction)

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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by Rational Mind on Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:12 am

Brother Qambar, Ya Ali Madad.

Beliefs manifest themselves through actions.

If you just say La ila ha illalah (there is no other god but Allah (Swt)) but you also have idols of other gods etc in your house, or you show deference to or show respect to idols etc, then that would show that your actions contradict your words.

Your iman (faith) can not be established by your words alone.

Your actions and words need to complement each other
Love (muadat) of the Aimma (as) needs to be practiced and not just preached/proclaimed.
Only then can you be a momin.

Muslim is one who submits, momin is one who believes after submission on the authority of the Aimma (as).
As of necessity, this believe must be evident in actions as well as words otherwise it will be empty rhetoric.

Ali Waris.
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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by kambar on Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:53 am

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3 November 2010.

Today is Eid ul Ardh.

Allah created this Earth for His Al Zahra.
Peace be upon her, her father, her husband, and her children.

Eid Mubarak to all Believers.

__________________________________________________________


Now to the topic:

Why is any action necessary when your belief is true?

I know that people cannot read the mind of a momin; but Allah can.

When to you Ali is true - Allah will shine through.

To seekers said Nabi
They need only love Ali


Ya Ali Ya Ali

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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by Rational Mind on Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:41 am

Surah e Ankabut:
2. Do people think that they will be released (just) on saying: ‘We have believed,’and they will not be tried?
3. And surely We tried (also) those who were before them. Certainly Allah shall make them prominent (through trial) who are truthful (in claiming belief), and shall make known the liars (as well).

As per the Tradition of Mola Al-Asr (atfj) it is NOT sufficient to claim belief alone and you shall be tested on it. Wherever Iman is mentioned in the quran it means the love of Ali ibne Abi Talib (as).
(hayat al quloob vol 3 page 234-235, tafseer ul burhan, tafseer e noor ul saqlain al kafi etc etc).

Narration of Mola Imama Musa Kazim (as): whoever followed his opinion in religion (deen) he is destroyed.
Whoever forsakes the book of Allah (swt) or a narration of the Prophet (saww) is kafir.

Now according to the quran, your words should be consistant with your actions, ie actions should preceed words and not vice versa.

If your actions do not match your words, or are non existant then you will be termed a hypocrite (munafiqoon):
[61:2] O you who believe, why do you say what you do not do?

[61:3] Most abominable in the sight of GOD is that you say what you do not do.

[26:226] And that they say what they practise not

[26:227] Save those who believe and do good works, and remember Allah much, and retaliate only after they are wronged. And the wrongdoers will soon know to what place of return they shall return.

So in order to be successful you need to do good works(believe in wilayat of Mola (as)), do good works, remember Allah(swt)....

Can you show me where the view that words alone without actions is sufficient for belief?

Momin is one whos heart has submitted and he has acquiesced to the will of his or her Master.

What you are describing is someone who thinks his or her professed belief is sufficient, that he will not be tested on it and that he will have a pass to heaven based on his words not backed up by his actions!

If that is the case, then everyone is a momin, i know plenty of sunnis who claim to love the 'panjtan paak' but this is not reflected in their actions by their association with the maloons who persecuted the Aimma (as).

But according to you, their testimony is sufficient....I cannot accept that.
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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by kambar on Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:49 am

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My brother Rational Mind, the verses you quoted refer to
those muslims who may be striving to become true believers.

As I said above, there is a big difference between a muslim and a momin. You know that already.

A man who only submits is not same as the man who believes.

Being a manager of this website with a "Ajare Resalat",
you have surprised me by asking this question:

Rational Mind wrote:

Can you show me where the view that words alone without actions is sufficient for belief?


In the Divine Book, Allah tells Nabi to say to Momins: I ask only ONE thing from you: Love of Korba.

Believers are not required to get up and do anything else.

Only one thing is required of Momins: To love Allah's Al Zahra, the Light of the Universe.

Nothing else was demanded from believers. Just one thing. LOVE.

This is Allah's immense mercy and bounty to friends of Ali. Allah lightened all burdens from believers.

When God says "One", then one really means one.

Unless, you think that "ONE" somehow means MORE than one.
That would be like the Christians who say that they believe God is one, but not really one, He comes in three, yet not He is not three, but actually one.


Ya Ali Ya Ali

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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by Rational Mind on Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:07 am

kambar wrote:-

My brother Rational Mind, the verses you quoted refer to
those muslims who may be striving to become true believers.

As I said above, there is a big difference between a muslim and a momin. You know that already.

A man who only submits is not same as the man who believes.

Being a manager of this website with a "Ajare Resalat",
you have surprised me by asking this question:

Rational Mind wrote:

Can you show me where the view that words alone without actions is sufficient for belief?


In the Divine Book, Allah tells Nabi to say to Momins: I ask only ONE thing from you: Love of Korba.

Believers are not required to get up and do anything else.

Only one thing is required of Momins: To love Allah's Al Zahra, the Light of the Universe.

Nothing else was demanded from believers. Just one thing. LOVE.

This is Allah's immense mercy and bounty to friends of Ali. Allah lightened all burdens from believers.

When God says "One", then one really means one.

Unless, you think that "ONE" somehow means MORE than one.
That would be like the Christians who say that they believe God is one, but not really one, He comes in three, yet not He is not three, but actually one.


Ya Ali Ya Ali

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My Brother Kambar

Notwithstanding your surprise, it is a valid question. my being an admin or manager of a site is neither here nor there.

Can you show me where Allah (swt) or his Messenger (saww) or the Aimma (as) have stated that loving us will be enough and you need not do anything?
Or did the Aimma (as) tell you to perform the obligations of Islam? You need to be a muslim first to be a Momin, you cant skip that phase.



A MOMIN is one who submits to Allah (swt), and to the Messenger (saww) and the Aimma (as). One who submits and 'believes'.

But the submission is also required, as without submission, belief on its own is useless.
Lets give you an example;
You own a car and you need to get from point A to B.

What you are saying is that you will get into the car and that is all you will need to do. Just by virtue of you being in the car you will be able to get wherever you want to go.
The above is what you are proposing by your argument.
You will need to drive, or find a driver, choose the route, obey the laws of the road and watch out for dangers and obstacles.

Only then will you have gotten from point a to point b.....if you sit in the car, do nothing and get out, all you have done is fooled yourself.

Answer my question though brother, if you have to just show 'one' love to the Aimma (as) and a sunni who believes in and respects the Aimma (as) but who also loves the enemies of the Aimma (as) comes to Mola (as), will he be blessed or punished?
Would you call him a momin? or does loving and being a momin mean we have to perform actions to show that love?
If nothing needs to be done then you would have to say the sunni is a momin, if not then actions are required.
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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by alialiali on Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:14 am

do sunnis really mean what they say?

they say

i love ali (ra)???? and i love the prophet who couldn't write till he was 40?
i love huraira who also couldnt write but i rather say he could and the prophet couldnt?

i think both of you are right, i think both of you know youre right in your points, but i agree more on Kambars side as its all about the intention, but kambar, if you want to stick to what your saying, then define the type of love you are talking about? the level it has to be on? there must be a level or you will be told sunnis love maula (As) so do shias, muslims, malangs, akhbaris, nusairis, wahabis (maybe just 1 out of the whole sect) making us all momins......


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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by Rational Mind on Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:26 am

Actually brother alialiali, i do not accept your arbitration.
The question to the topic is 'BECOMING A TRUE BELIEVER'.

The question is not loving the Aimma (as) or whether we need to exhibit our love for the Aimma (as).

The quran is quite clear that we need to show muaddat (an affinity transcending death).

abu salaat said that i was told by ali bin musa raza asws, from his father, from jafar bin mohammad asws, from his father, from ali bin hussein asws, from his father, from ali ibn abi talib asws, he said that prophet asws said that faith is the name of acceptance from the heart, saying with tongue, and acting on the pillars.

abu salat said that if this sanad is recited over a majnoon/mad man, he will be cured

This is from sunan ibne majah vol 1 page 74.

According to our Imams (as) and the Prophet (saww), Iman (faith- that which makes a momin) is the name given to the:
i) acceptance from the heart
AND
ii) declaration from the tongue
AND
iii) Acting on the pillars.

Without any one of these 3 you have no faith as per the words of 7 Imams (as) and the Holy Prophet (saww).

This kind of disagrees with everything you and kanbar have said so far.
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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by kambar on Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:11 pm


Rational Mind wrote:

This [hadith from Ibn Maja] kind of disagrees with everything you and kambar have said so far.

Ibn Maja is not an authority for a true believer. Nor is any other person who loves enemies of Al Zahra.

alialiali wrote:

kambar, if you want to stick to what your saying, then define the type of love you are talking about? the level it has to be on?
there must be a level or you will be told sunnis love maula (As) so do shias, muslims, malangs, akhbaris, nusairis, wahabis (maybe just 1 out of the whole sect) making us all momins......


Good point.

But love is love. There are no types of love. Either you love someone or you dont. There is no middle ground.

Shias love Ali and Sunnis love Abu Bakr. We can all see that.


Rational Mind wrote:

Can you show me where Allah (swt) or his Messenger (saww) or the Aimma (as) have stated that loving us will be enough and you need not do anything?


I have already shown you the verse. Maybe you missed it.

Rational Mind wrote:

Or did the Aimma (as) tell you to perform the obligations of Islam? You need to be a muslim first to be a Momin, you cant skip that phase.


Who told you this? Thats news to me.

Rational Mind wrote:

A MOMIN is one who submits to Allah (swt), and to the Messenger (saww) and the Aimma (as). One who submits and 'believes'.


I would have thought that the word "BELIEVER" itself is clear enough for a wise person like you. Believer is he who BELIEVES.

Rational Mind wrote:

Lets give you an example;

You own a car and you need to get from point A to B.
What you are saying is that you will get into the car and that is all you will need to do. Just by virtue of you being in the car you will be able to get wherever you want to go.
The above is what you are proposing by your argument.
You will need to drive, or find a driver, choose the route, obey the laws of the road and watch out for dangers and obstacles.
Only then will you have gotten from point a to point b.....if you sit in the car, do nothing and get out, all you have done is fooled yourself.


Good example. But it has nothiing to do with the discussion at hand.

Believers never wish go away from Ali. They do not want to even move from the feet of Ali.

Rational Mind wrote:

Answer my question though brother, if you have to just show 'one' love to the Aimma (as) and a sunni who believes in and respects the Aimma (as) but who also loves the enemies of the Aimma (as) comes to Mola (as), will he be blessed or punished?
Would you call him a momin? or does loving and being a momin mean we have to perform actions to show that love?
If nothing needs to be done then you would have to say the sunni is a momin, if not then actions are required.


My brother Rational Mind. Respect is not enough. What is needed is love for Imam Ali.

Sunnis have respect not love for Imam Ali.

I respect the Queen of England. But I love the Queen of the Universe.

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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by Azadar E Mazloom on Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:18 pm

Ya Ali (As) Madad

Brother Kambar,

Just incase I have misunderstood the gist of your argument, are you claiming that we just need to love the Ahlul Bayt (as) and don't need to perform any kind of actions for them in order for us to be true believers?

This is after bearing in mind that the Masumin (as) have asked us to perform certain actions???

If you could please clarify this for me brother...
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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by kambar on Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:37 pm

Ya Ali Ya Ali

My Brother Azadar,

Let me ask you this:

Do you think a man needs to first perform any particular action in order to be counted as a believer.

Or,

Do you think that a man first needs to become a believer, and then perform a certain action?


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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by Azadar E Mazloom on Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:39 pm

Brother Kambar, I asked you a simple question. I didn't ask you to reply to my question with a question. I asked in order to understand the nature of your argument.

So if you could please answer my above question and not beat around the bush. Thanks...
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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by kambar on Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:51 pm

Ok.

My Brother Azadar.

I apologize to you for not answering you directly. Please forgive me.


Azadar E Mazloom wrote:

Just incase I have misunderstood the gist of your argument, are you claiming that we just need to love the Ahlul Bayt (as) and don't need to perform any kind of actions for them in order for us to be true believers?

This is after bearing in mind that the Masumin (as) have asked us to perform certain actions???


No.

Once a man becomes a believer, then he would even die for his master.

Because a true believer loves Al Zahra, he would ump even in the burning fire if she required him to do so.

But what he does AFTER becoming a believer is not the subject matter of this topic.


As to your second question, you have to ask to WHOM certain actions were proscribed, and WHY.


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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by Azadar E Mazloom on Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:59 pm

Thank you for answering my question and absolutely, a true believer would jump into a fire the moment it was needed or the moment a command was made however, could one actually be a true believer if one doesn't do as their masters (as) have asked one to do so?

I mean if one claims to believe in the Ma'sumin (as) but never does anything they (as) have commanded, one is a munafiq in my opinion. Worse then a none believer as a munafiq knows exactly was is expected and what the truth is.

Are you able to clarify this?

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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by kambar on Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:13 pm

Azadar E Mazloom wrote:

Thank you for answering my question and absolutely, a true believer would jump into a fire the moment it was needed of a command was made however,
could someone actually be a true believer if they don't do as their masters (as) have asked one to do so?


No. Believers do as Ali bids.

However, are you saying that some action by a person is necesarry in order for Nabi to count him as a believers?

Wow. That is news to me.

Please do tell: What does a man need to perform to become a true believer.

Azadar E Mazloom wrote:

I mean if one claims to believe in the Ma'sumin (as) but never does anything they (as) have commanded, one is a munafiq in my opinion. Worse then a none believer as a munafiq knows exactly was is expected.

Are you able to clarify this?


Yes, I totally agree.

That is what some men did in life of Nabi. They claimed to love Nabi, but during the Battle of Ohad they ran away and left him to his enemies on the battlefield. Before that they used to perform a lot of actions such as praying, fasting, charity, and so on.


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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by Azadar E Mazloom on Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:23 pm

[quote="kambar"]
Azadar E Mazloom wrote:
However, are you saying that some action by a person is necesarry in order for Nabi to count him as a believers?
Wow. That is news to me.
Please do tell: What does a man need to perform to become a true believer.

That is not what I'm saying at all. What I believe is that the moment one claims to be a believer, then that person needs to accept the 'actions' that accompany the belief. That is how simple a point I am making. A believer needs to perform WHATEVER is asked from him or he won't be a believer.

I am asking you for clarification as we may all agree with what you're saying but you may be saying it in a way that makes less sense to us and vice versa.
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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by kambar on Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:32 pm

Azadar E Mazloom wrote:

What I believe is that the moment one claims to be a believer, then that person needs to accept the 'actions' that accompany the belief. That is how simple a point I am making. A believer needs to perform WHATEVER is asked from him or he won't be a believer.

I am asking you for clarification as we may all agree with what you're saying but you may be saying it in a way that makes less sense to us and vice versa.


Very Happy "vice versa"

Thank you my brother Azadar.


True Believer would happily lay down his life Ali his master.


Ya Ali Ya Ali.

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Re: Becoming a True Believer

Post by AL786 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:11 am

According to Our beloved Prophet SAWAW:

1:None Loves ALi a.s But A believer nd none hates Him a.s but a hypocrite
2:Those who love Ali a.s r the believers nd those who hate Him a.s r the hypocrites
3:A believer can never hate Ali a.s nd a hypocrite can never love Him a.s
4;loving Ali a.s is believing nd hating Him a.s is hypocrisy
5:loving Ali a.s is a sign of belief nd hating Him A.s is a sign of hypocrisy.

Imam Ali a.s Himself said in nahjul balagha

two different types

1:"If I was to strike the tip of the nose of a believer with my sword to hate me with as much hatred as he can,and If I was to pour down the whole world to onto a hypocrite to love me with as much love as possible they would not do it ,and this is because what has been destined through the tongue of the unchooled Prophet (SAWA), saying , 'Ali, a believer can never hate you and a hypocrite can never love you.'

2:"If I strike the nose of a believer with this sword of mine so that he will become my enemy, it will not create hostility and if I pour the (riches of the) whole world on the head of a hypocrite so that he may like me, he will never like me; because this has been decreed and laid down by the tongue of the Prophet when he said: "O `Ali, the believer will never be your enemy and the hypocrite will never love you!"

Nahjul Balagha saying 45

so! Imam Ali a.s is the most severe distinction between a believer nd a hypocrite



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