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Infallible

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Infallible

Post by ahmedlondon on Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:40 am

According to shias, our prophets and imams pbut are infallible. A quick search on google shows these definitions....
incapable of failure or error; "an infallible antidote"; "an infallible memory"; "the Catholic Church considers the Pope infallible"; "no doctor ...
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Infallibility, from Latin origin ('in', not + 'fallere', to deceive), is a term with a variety of meanings related to knowing truth with certainty.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infallible
Without fault or weakness; incapable of error or fallacy
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/infallible
infallibility - the quality of never making an error

According to some shias, the prophets and imams pbut could make mistakes/sins but their iman would be strong enough to do otherwise. If the prophets pbut are infallible, how did Adam (as) end up listening to iblis and how did Musa (as) kill a man?

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Re: Infallible

Post by Silat_warrior110 on Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:56 am

CHAPTER 36
THE BELIEF CONCERNING INFALLIBILITY ('isma)
Says the Shaykh Abu Ja'far: Our belief concerning the prophets (anbia'), apostles (rusul), Imams and angels is that they are infallible (ma'sum); purified from all defilement (danas), and that they do not commit any sin, whether it be minor (saghira) or major (kabira). They do not disobey Allah in what He has commanded them; they act in accordance with His behests. He who denies infallibility to them in any matter appertaining to their status is ignorant of them, and such a one is a kafir (unbeliever).

Our belief concerning them is that they are infallible and possess the attributes of perfection, completeness and knowledge, from the beginning to the end of their careers. Defects (naqs) cannot be attributed to them, nor disobedience ('isyan), nor ignorance (jahl), in any of their actions (ahwal).
http://www.sicm.org.uk/index.php?page=suduk/main
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Re: Infallible

Post by ahmedlondon on Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:00 am

You didn't answer my question about Adam (as) and Musa (as)

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Re: Infallible

Post by Rational Mind on Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:10 pm

Brother Ahmed i will try and attempt to provide you with some limited answers, with the grace and benevolence of Mola (as) you will follow what i am trying to convey.

Verse 115 of Sura Qasas starts of by saying: that a covenant had been taken from Adam (as) but he had forgotten this.
What is this covenant? could it be the one taken at alim ul darr? or was it another one?

Then the angels bowed to Adam (as) (20:116).

Allah (swt) then warns Adam (as) that he can live in the garden where he shall not want for anything but he should be careful of satan who will try and get Him (as) and his wife thrown out of the garden.

This then happens, where Adam (as) chose not to follow the advice of Allah (swt) and he was expelled from the garden and his tenure on earth began.

They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If
thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly
be lost.

So not follwoing the advice of Allah(swt) was a wrong unto themselves, and they sought mercy.

THEN his lord chose him and guided him (20:122).

Up until Hz Adams (as) tenure on earth, he had not been chosen and had not been guided.
So how can he have sinned if he had not been guided?
He had been warned that if he did something he would be expelled from the garden and his trial shall begin for which he has been created....
2:30 Adam was created as a vicegereant (prophet/representative) on earth, and his tenure as a vicegereant was on earth not before. The purpose was to be on earth and live out the test. The tenure in the garden (not paradise) was a respite before the trial began.

So Adam was not on earth which is the place of tibulation and test, he had not been guided, and he was not the vicegereant up until then.
So how did he err or sin as a prophet without guidence and without having been given office?

As for Hazrat Musa (as); can you show me how the killing of an egyptian (nubian) who was attacking an ummati of the Prophet Musa (as) is a sin?

The Prophet (as) was sincere in his intention so how can it be a sin? Would it be a sin for you to try and help protect someone and accidentally hurt another?

Furthermore, where had Hz Musa (as) been prohibited from defending his people or fighting against oppression, because that is what Hz Musa (as) did?
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Re: Infallible

Post by ahmedlondon on Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:15 pm

Thank you for covering up the Adam (as) issue. Concering Musa (as), i'm aware that he was defending one of his people and did not intend to kill the Egyptian man therefore making it a mistake. If you're infallible doesn't that mean you can't make mistakes?

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Re: Infallible

Post by Rational Mind on Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:33 pm

ahmedlondon wrote:Thank you for covering up the Adam (as) issue. Concering Musa (as), i'm aware that he was defending one of his people and did not intend to kill the Egyptian man therefore making it a mistake. If you're infallible doesn't that mean you can't make mistakes?

How was it a mistake?

Infallible as per your researched definitions includes error, failure or fallacy.
If the Prophet (as) was not prohibited from defending his follower or himself (as) from the egyptian or from killing him in self defence, then how can this act be one of error, failure or fallacy?

It was inadvertant and not the best cause of action, but it was not a wrong cause of action.
If it was not a wrong cause of action, no matter how unintentional and inadvertant, how can it be a mistake?

If you drive down the road and are involved in an accident because another car does not obey a
stop sign and pulls out in front of you and you are hit by another car, it is not your fault or mistake.
Even though it was not your intention when you crossed that junction and you could have taken a different route or gone slower or not driven at all, the fact that you drove is not an error as you had every right to drive because you had a driving license and insurance.

I hope i am making sense?
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Re: Infallible

Post by Rational Mind on Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:36 pm

Incidentally, this is the concept of tark e awla, ie doing an act which is allowed, but is not the best act.
Only our Aimma (as) are at the highest level of ismat (infalliblity) all other Prophets(as) are at lesser varying degrees of ismat.

Thus a PRophet(as) may make a choice which is the lesser of two allowed but good acts. It is for not doing the best possible that the Prophets(as) have sought guidence and forgiveness so that they may better themselves.
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Re: Infallible

Post by azadaar110 on Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:12 am

Rational Mind wrote:
Only our Aimma (as) are at the highest level of ismat (infalliblity) all other Prophets(as) are at lesser varying degrees of ismat.

Only our Aimmah (as) and Rasulallah (saww) are at the highest level of Infallibility, all other Prophets (as) are at lesser varying degrees of Infallibility.

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Re: Infallible

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